OSAS

[CentralFLJames]

I’m glad you pointed that out. Have you read Galatians? Let’s see what Paul says…

“4This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.”–2:4,5

Paul even had to rebuke Peter–

“14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? 15"We who are Jews by birth and not ‘Gentile sinners’ 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”–2:14-16

So you see, Paul is, after all, cursing not those who embrace a ‘cheap gospel’, but rather those who pervert the pure gospel of grace through faith by adding works to it as a requirement to attain or keep salvation. And of course he says in Rom 4 that “a man is justified by faith apart from ANY works of the law.”–a verse most Roman Catholic teachers seem to gnash their teeth over.

You should be a propagandist. Your editorialization of scripture would make even a cold war Russian newscaster blush.

What we really see here is that Paul is NOT telling us about faith alone. If you take your Protestant OSAS bifocals off you will see that there is not a single usage of the word ALONE that you imagine is present in these verses. In other words you are conjuring up the phrase “by faith alone” but this phrase is NOT present ANYWHERE in this verse or the entire bible! What is present is the phrase “justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law”. Paul is talking negatively about the OT legalistic sort of works of law and is not dismissing the need to do works of faith or love as James tells us we must do. There is a HUGE difference between the kinds of work and if you did not know that then you missed just about the entire NT gospel message and the New Covenant.

If we wanted to clarify what Paul said in modern terms it would read something like “justified by faith in Christ and faith in observing ALL His teachings and not by mere works of law.”

Catholics do not teach a salvation by works. What we teach is a salvation by grace through faith and charitable works of faith/love being an inseparable aspect of faith. As we know from James 2:20 a faith devoid of works is dead (“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead”).

Pulling it all together we could thus say here that Paul & James would agree: we are ‘justified by a living and demonstrable faith in Christ and not by works of law but rather by works of faith and Christian charity as Jesus taught and commanded’.

So you see Catholics are just fine with faith and grace but know that works of charity are in fact another face of the same spiritual coin that has faith on the other side of it. Invest that coin and put the interest in the alms basket for the poor rather than paying whatever preacher you pay to teach you your false gospel and you will go a long way toward attaining salvation.

James

 

[JRKH]

OSAS is a failure for two simple reasons. and all the arguing back and forth won’t change that fact.

The first reason is that - Jesus never taught it
This is abundantly Clear in John 17

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15** I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.**

Who is Jesus Speaking of Here - THE APOSTLES
If OSAS were True then Jesus need not Ask the Father to “KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL ONE”

It is Also Clear in Matthew 13 the Soer and seed -
Not only does Jesus give us the parable but explains it in the Recorded Scripture:
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
I only highlighted the one section because the term "endure is one that is echoed in other places.
So - All you folks who believe in OSAS, did you receive the Word with Joy? Are you enduring? Can you know tha tyou will “Endure” to the end?

In order for me to accept OSAS it would have to be AIR TIGHT Doctrine otherwise I risk falling into the sin of arrogance and luke warm faith. So long as a single passage exists that demonstrates that OSAS is false, then THAT is the best course to take.
Why?
Because, as has been shown on this thread there are any number of passeges in the Bible that deflate, or at least call into question the idea of OSAS. AND
Because it keeps me growing in faith. It keeps me seeking after the Lord. It keeps me seeking after holiness and thereby (hopefully) being fruitful - a good and faithful servant.

Now the second reason I know that OSAS is wrong is because The Church has never held it to be true.
Yes - The Church, - which has been been studying and proofing teachings since Day One of the Christian Era.
The Church - Founded by Christ upon a group of men whom He spent three years training and upon others who followed them.
The Church - Whom Christ gave the Poser to Bind and Loose so I do not have to keep rehashing ideas that were looked at debated and decided upon long ago. Thus freeing me up to pursue greater actions to both build up my own faith AND the faith of others.

Peace
James

 

[The_Question]

You should be a propagandist. Your editorialization of scripture would make even a cold war Russian newscaster blush.

What we really see here is that Paul is NOT telling us about faith alone. If you take your Protestant OSAS bifocals off you will see that there is not a single usage of the word ALONE that you imagine is present in these verses. In other words you are conjuring up the phrase “by faith alone” but this phrase is NOT present ANYWHERE in this verse or the entire bible! What is present is the phrase “justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law”. Paul is talking negatively about the OT legalistic sort of works of law and is not dismissing the need to do works of faith or love as James tells us we must do. There is a HUGE difference between the kinds of work and if you did not know that then you missed just about the entire NT gospel message and the New Covenant.

If we wanted to clarify what Paul said in modern terms it would read something like “justified by faith in Christ and faith in observing ALL His teachings and not by mere works of law.”

Catholics do not teach a salvation by works. What we teach is a salvation by grace through faith and charitable works of faith/love being an inseparable aspect of faith. As we know from James 2:20 a faith devoid of works is dead (“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead”).

Pulling it all together we could thus say here that Paul & James would agree: we are ‘justified by a living and demonstrable faith in Christ and not by works of law but rather by works of faith and Christian charity as Jesus taught and commanded’.

So you see Catholics are just fine with faith and grace but know that works of charity are in fact another face of the same spiritual coin that has faith on the other side of it.

James

Yehhh…Right! You are so blinded you don’t even see how ridiculous it is when you restate Paul there and you add works to what he says!! That is TRULY amazing! I bet you simply despise the fact that Paul says “we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from ANY works of the law!”

You haven’t even read Galatians. ***“I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?” ***

I suppose when they asked Jesus what they might do to WORK THE WORKS OF GOD, and He answered and said, “THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YOU BELIEVE ON HIM WHOM HE HAS SENT” …If you could just get Jesus in a room and sit him down you would chastise Him and tell Him He really blew it when He answered that question. He must have been having a little mental lapse for not adding in there…"…and that you not only believe but obey everything I command. Then and only then you will be working the works of God." Poor Jesus, He just got it all wrong that day! Fortunately we have some religious people who could come along later and change…errrrrr…clarify what He said, since He was so inept at expressing himself. Or maybe the Holy Spirit just didn’t quite have enough power to guide the gospel writer as he wrote. That must be it! He probably knew all along that Centralflajames and his buddies would be along some day to clean up the mess He and Jesus left behind.

You see, what you dont get is that Jesus wasn’t talking about the results of salvation, He was talking about how to be saved, once and for all. Then the works you speak of (actually works far beyond what you speak of) WILL follow. The works you talk about will all be burned up at the Bema seat, because they were done in the flesh, with srong motives, and not out of a grateful heart in the power of the Holy Spirit. You can’t do ANY of those works until you are born again. And that happens in a moment in time when you repent of self righteousness and receive the FREE GIFT Jesus paid for with his blood. You need the ONCE SAVED, by true saving faith, and then and only then will you be fit to even discuss the ALWAYS SAVED! Go study Galatians and Romans and stop pretending you know what they teach.

You haven’t a clue what grace is. I pray God shows you, friend.

 

[The_Question]

OSAS is a failure for two simple reasons. and all the arguing back and forth won’t change that fact.

The first reason is that - Jesus never taught it
This is abundantly Clear in John 17

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15** I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one**.

Who is Jesus Speaking of Here - THE APOSTLES
If OSAS were True then Jesus need not Ask the Father to “KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL ONE”

It is Also Clear in Matthew 13 the Soer and seed -
Not only does Jesus give us the parable but explains it in the Recorded Scripture:
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
I only highlighted the one section because the term "endure is one that is echoed in other places.
So - All you folks who believe in OSAS, did you receive the Word with Joy? Are you enduring? Can you know tha tyou will “Endure” to the end?

In order for me to accept OSAS it would have to be AIR TIGHT Doctrine otherwise I risk falling into the sin of arrogance and luke warm faith. So long as a single passage exists that demonstrates that OSAS is false, then THAT is the best course to take.
Why?
Because, as has been shown on this thread there are any number of passeges in the Bible that deflate, or at least call into question the idea of OSAS. AND
Because it keeps me growing in faith. It keeps me seeking after the Lord. It keeps me seeking after holiness and thereby (hopefully) being fruitful - a good and faithful servant.

Now the second reason I know that OSAS is wrong is because The Church has never held it to be true.
Yes - The Church, - which has been been studying and proofing teachings since Day One of the Christian Era.
The Church - Founded by Christ upon a group of men whom He spent three years training and upon others who followed them.
The Church - Whom Christ gave the Poser to Bind and Loose so I do not have to keep rehashing ideas that were looked at debated and decided upon long ago. Thus freeing me up to pursue greater actions to both build up my own faith AND the faith of others.

Peace
James

Actually you COULD just stop at John 17 where Jesus prayed for the preservation of his own. ANY CHANCE JESUS’ PRAYER WOULDN’T BE HONORED? Maybe in your book.

Jesus clearly says “My sheep hear my voice and they follow me and I give unto them eternal life, AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH” Did He say NEVER? In my logic, that would mean that IF you are one of His sheep, you have a promise in your hand. If that promise is uttered now of you, then it is true, and it says you will NEVER perish.

Or what about this in John 6…

“37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

What was that about Jesus not teaching it?

And that is why you are wrong about the Church not teaching it. They have and do, because it is as plain as the nose on your face.

But what your corner of the church is teaching is not what you would call Amazing Grace. What would you call it? I call it, with Paul, ‘another gospel’.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Yehhh…Right! You are so blinded you don’t even see how ridiculous it is when you restate Paul there and you add works to what he says!! That is TRULY amazing! I bet you simply despise the fact that Paul says “we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from ANY works of the law!”

You haven’t even read Galatians. ***“I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? 4Have you suffered so much for nothing—if it really was for nothing? 5Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?” ***

I suppose when they asked Jesus what they might do to WORK THE WORKS OF GOD, and He answered and said, “THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD, THAT YOU BELIEVE ON HIM WHOM HE HAS SENT” …If you could just get Jesus in a room and sit him down you would chastise Him and tell Him He really blew it when He answered that question. He must have been having a little mental lapse for not adding in there…"…and that you not only believe but obey everything I command. Then and only then you will be working the works of God." Poor Jesus, He just got it all wrong that day! Fortunately we have some religious people who could come along later and change…errrrrr…clarify what He said, since He was so inept at expressing himself. Or maybe the Holy Spirit just didn’t quite have enough power to guide the gospel writer as he wrote. That must be it! He probably knew all along that Centralflajames and his buddies would be along some day to clean up the mess He and Jesus left behind.

You see, what you dont get is that Jesus wasn’t talking about the results of salvation, He was talking about how to be saved, once and for all. Then the works you speak of (actually works far beyond what you speak of) WILL follow. The works you talk about will all be burned up at the Bema seat, because they were done in the flesh, with srong motives, and not out of a grateful heart in the power of the Holy Spirit. You can’t do ANY of those works until you are born again. And that happens in a moment in time when you repent of self righteousness and receive the FREE GIFT Jesus paid for with his blood. You need the ONCE SAVED, by true saving faith, and then and only then will you be fit to even discuss the ALWAYS SAVED! Go study Galatians and Romans and stop pretending you know what they teach.

You haven’t a clue what grace is. I pray God shows you, friend.

Your problem is you want to pull single line proof texts out of the 35,000 or so bible verses to invent a simple christianity that will fit on a pocket flash-card. The truth is NO APOSTLE EVER TAUGHT the OSAS nosence you spew in here – nor did Jesus. One must live by every word that comes out of God’s mouth and so if you ignore one verse of scripture in favor of another or ignore the apostolic teachings then you simply are inventing a new gospel.

In your simple neo-Christian world there is no need to love God or neighbor if we have faith in Jesus alone. Nor is there a need to not sin and you are free to go sleep with your preacher’s wife because you are saved. In your new gospel you are free and liberated from the law and don’t have to obey any of God’s commandments. Sorry - in your world you go to hell at your judgment just for perspiring to labor in spreading this false gospel since works become sinful. How absurd and inane…

Paul was contrasting faith with works of law and did not mean in that comparison to say that all one needs is faith. Gee - what happened to grace? Sola Fide does not mention anything about grace. You simply make a work out of faith. If as you believe (wrongly) that Jesus “did it all on the cross” why do you have to do the work of believing?

Who is brainwashing you with this nonsence?? NO APOSTLE ever taught this tripe that you are parroting from someone else’s teachings.

Go back and answer each of the dozens of other scriptures I already gave you witch refute OSAS outright. Then answer my other questions.

Are you saved?
Are you exempt from sin?
Are you circumcised? If you are you have been severed from Christ for trusting in the law and you better go blame your mother and father and thank them for sending you to hell (maybe a sex change is an option? )

You might observe that Jesus commands you to do many things and if you have faith in Jesus then why don’t you have faith in what He commands? The reason is because you are not really saved by your own private standards. You are among those that Jesus warned about when he said:

John 14:15 If you love me, then you will do the things I command.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Does faith in Christ alone relieve you from the necessity of loving Christ so you can disobey His commandments?

You might as well toss your bible in the garbage can since you are not following anything in the bible and are following a neo-Christian doctrine invented by very ignorant men.

BTW: Do YOU know what grace is? I don’t think you have a clue…

Hint: It has something to do with love…

James

 

[Jerry_Marino]

"For many are called but few are chosen." Matt 22:14
God was wise in ensuring we don’t become overconfident regarding our salvation.

if one is confident in their ability of holding on to their salvation, i would have to agree with you but i have never stated that i am confident in my own ability. i am confident and rely on God to hold on to me.

what i see hear is that those who believe salvation can be lost is cause they have depended on works to gain salvation therefore salvation in their mind can be lost.

God bless

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Jerry, none of what you present here supports OSAS. In fact, besides the first verse there from Romans, none of it comes even close to the notion.

So, I’ll address Romans

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.

When something is irrevocable, it doesn’t infer that it will be accepted, or complied with by the people who receive it. Irrevocable means unalterable, unable to be revoked. This means that God means business with His gifts, with His calling. He will not change it for anyone’s sake. In other words, the GIVING of the gift is irrevocable, NOT the RECEIVING. To paraphrase the earlier verse (Rom 11:25), He (God) hardened Israel for a time, and did not cease (it was irrevocable) until His promise of the fullness of the Gentiles took place (which was Christ’s mission).

You would like irrevocable to mean that He grants us salvation the instant we come to Him, and we cannot lose it even if we screw it up because God’s bound to the irreversibility of the fulfillment of the gift because we initial received it. Nonsense. That’s not implied in all of Romans 11, or any other Scripture. Furthermore, and most importantly, it’s a fatal twist of the meaning.

Would you care to address my previous post as well? (#49). Thanks

God Bless You

2 Corinthians 1:21 But the one who gives us security with you in Christ and who anointed us is God; 22 he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment.

*[21-22] The commercial terms gives us security, seal, first installment are here used analogously to refer to the process of initiation into the Christian life, perhaps specifically to baptism. The passage is clearly trinitarian. The Spirit is the first installment or “down payment” of the full messianic benefits that God guarantees to Christians. *

i guess you guys don’t agree with this commentary, i already know you don’t agree with God’s word but what about this commentary. God gives us security, His seal, His Spirit that is what one receives upon believing in Christ.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.

[13] Sealed: by God, in baptism.
[14] First installment: down payment by God on full salvation.

do you all still ignore the fact that once you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation and have believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession to the praise of His glory?

or maybe you all don’t believe and that is why you struggle in the assurance of salvation that comes from God.

John 6:27 Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal." 28 So they said to him, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent."

Jesus tells us not to work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life which He will give us, God has set His seal on Him which is the same seal we receive upon believing. the people ask what are the works of God and His reply is to believe in the one He sent. believe in Christ.

these verses have been put on here before but you all are blind that you are stuck in working for your salvation. you have my best wishes on your task.

God bless

 

[CentralFLJames]

if one is confident in their ability of holding on to their salvation, i would have to agree with you but i have never stated that i am confident in my own ability. i am confident and rely on God to hold on to me.

what i see hear is that those who believe salvation can be lost is cause they have depended on works to gain salvation therefore salvation in their mind can be lost.

God bless

What I see here is a vain confidence that presumes as much upon one’s own dubious works of knowledge and personal perspiration in interpreting scripture in exact opposition to what the apostle’s actually taught as it presumes to put God to the test daily just so you and other OSAS believers can avoid any personal responsibility to obey and love Jesus or to avoid sin or even do the scantiest works of charity that Christ commanded. How convenient that we can just ignore all these others things that Jesus commanded. Faith in private interpretation trumps all and no need not forgive other’s sins; one need not be kind nor merciful nor love nor suffer to bear our crosses nor obey a single commandment. Uh huh.

You would raise up a mere human doctrine to crucify the plain truth of scripture just to avoid the commandments to love God and neighbor and “to actually do a single thing that God commanded you”. In your personal theology there is no need of a relationship with Christ and one can imagine God will take delight in any soul that can emulate a demon’s belief that “Jesus is Lord” without loving nor obeying God. In your system of belief grace has nothing to do with the essence of Divine Love since all we need do is slaughter the truth and let that blood rain down on us and have faith we are covered.

Uh huh…

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

2 Corinthians 1:21 But the one who gives us security with you in Christ and who anointed us is God; 22 he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment.

*[21-22] The commercial terms gives us security, seal, first installment are here used analogously to refer to the process of initiation into the Christian life, perhaps specifically to baptism. The passage is clearly trinitarian. The Spirit is the first installment or “down payment” of the full messianic benefits that God guarantees to Christians. *

i guess you guys don’t agree with this commentary, i already know you don’t agree with God’s word but what about this commentary. God gives us security, His seal, His Spirit that is what one receives upon believing in Christ.

The commentary taken with your editorial comments sure have a way of giving holy writ a forensic sort of slant that would suggest that we can purchase our way into heaven. They would make it seem that if we first do the work of stooping down to pick up that shiny penny of faith that good fortune has left us, then make a wish for heaven and then toss it into the baptismal font and dive in to fetch it back again we can be assured of more fortune to come and also be assured of getting the really big crackerjack prize of heaven – assuming we didn’t botch the wish to wish to be in the opposite place the baptised Catholics go.

Ephesians 1:13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.

[13] Sealed: by God, in baptism.
[14] First installment: down payment by God on full salvation.

do you all still ignore the fact that once you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation and have believed in Him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit which is the first installment of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession to the praise of His glory?

or maybe you all don’t believe and that is why you struggle in the assurance of salvation that comes from God.

Do you suggest here that the water of Catholic baptisms is not as efficaceous as the Protestant baptismal waters and that the word of God spoken in a Catholic Church must always fall on deaf ears? Can not God save Catholics too - even if they do those extra and unnecessary works and feed the hungry and cloth the poor etc.? Or do those works become a contradiction to belief in God too great for Him to overcome and make it impossible for God to save them from the hell that good works will land them in? God can save a terrible sinner but not a goody-two-shoes sinner who exceeds the requrements by lending a hand to help poor widows and orphans?

John 6:27 Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God, has set his seal." 28 So they said to him, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent."

Jesus tells us not to work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life which He will give us, God has set His seal on Him which is the same seal we receive upon believing. the people ask what are the works of God and His reply is to believe in the one He sent. believe in Christ.

these verses have been put on here before but you all are blind that you are stuck in working for your salvation. you have my best wishes on your task.

God bless

Indeed. This is why Catholics work to extend our hand to gain the Bread of Life and The Cup of Salvation and do as God commanded in John 6 to eat the Living Word of God and drink His blood so we wil have eternal life within us. Why don’t you do the same? Or are you afraid that chewing one’s food is a work that would condemn us to hell and make us blind to the truth?

Can’t God rescue even the blind believers?

James

 

[rinnie]

if one is confident in their ability of holding on to their salvation, i would have to agree with you but i have never stated that i am confident in my own ability. i am confident and rely on God to hold on to me.

what i see hear is that those who believe salvation can be lost is cause they have depended on works to gain salvation therefore salvation in their mind can be lost.

God bless

Why do you think that because we believe what the bible says, ALL of what the bible says, not just bits and pieces that we deny what Jesus did on the cross.

Time after time we have said we know we were saved by the grace of God. But why do you refuse to see that if we are truely saved, and are truely one of Gods it is impossible to have faith without works. Now either you guys are right, or the word of God is wrong. Whats it gonna be.

Lets ask Luke. Luke said 9:23 In order to follow Jesus we MUST DENY ourselves and Pick up our Cross DAILY. Now daily work sounds like a lifetime to me. Now why did he say MUST. Now if you not agree that picking up our cross means sharing in the pain of Christ and doing a work then I am wrong and you are right. If you feel you can do that by faith alone and not works then you are right. And then you are right you are much more confident then I am. Now if you can show where the bible says we do not have to deny ourselves and pick up the cross daily, then my Church has misled me. So has the bible. And you have the truth, I don’t.

You seem to believe Just because Jesus died on the cross for ours sins, and gave us saving Grace, that we can sin all we want and still walk in this world full of sin, and do not have to turn away from sin. Then excuse me what is the cross we must deny ourselves, it not one of those crosses sin? Because that is what you are saying. Or maybe you can explain it to me, and how you can overlook that scripture.

So Jerry how do we deny ourself and pick up our cross daily and not do a work. And why does the bible tell me I must? your turn!

 

[Philthy]

I’m glad you pointed that out. Have you read Galatians? Let’s see what Paul says…

 

[JRKH]

Actually you COULD just stop at John 17 where Jesus prayed for the preservation of his own. ANY CHANCE JESUS’ PRAYER WOULDN’T BE HONORED? Maybe in your book.

Jesus clearly says “My sheep hear my voice and they follow me and I give unto them eternal life, AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH” Did He say NEVER? In my logic, that would mean that IF you are one of His sheep, you have a promise in your hand. If that promise is uttered now of you, then it is true, and it says you will NEVER perish.

Or what about this in John 6…

“37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

What was that about Jesus not teaching it?

And that is why you are wrong about the Church not teaching it. They have and do, because it is as plain as the nose on your face.

But what your corner of the church is teaching is not what you would call Amazing Grace. What would you call it? I call it, with Paul, ‘another gospel’.

That is all right - You may go on and continue to toss Bible verses back and forth debating this and that BUT
The mere fact that you ask is there any chance that Jesus prayer wouldn’t be honored proves that there is the POSSIBILITY that such a prayer would not be honored.

It does NOT change the fact that Jesus DID Pray that the father Protect the Apostles from the Evil One. If the Apostles Were ALREADY Given to Jesus then the were ALREADY Saved and therefore, by the doctrine of OSAS the prayer was superflous.

Secondly the explaination of the Sower and the seeds CLEARLY says that there are those who recieve the Word with Joy, but do not ENDURE.

Can you give other explanations?
Yup.
Do the hold up?
Nope.

I Look to God to save through the Blood of Christ, By the Unmerited Grace He has given me AND by my disposing myself to recieve and respond TO that Grace EVERY DAY.

It’s as plain as the nose on your face!!!

Case Closed.

Peace
James

 

[rinnie]

Hi Philthy. Why is it that they feel works of law are the same as good works. I don’t get it.

What I don’t understand either they accept as we do that Jesus died on the cross so we could have eternal life. But then turn around and reject their crosses. How can we accept Jesus and say we love him. but then turn around and reject the crosses that he gave US to carry. Isn’t it by our crosses and how we carry them that we are tested to see what kind of faith we really have. Isn’t it our acceptance of those crosses (good works) what shows true faith. And how can we even begin to accept those crosses without faith, and then turn around and say we have faith, but reject the works that that faith bring us to.

Don’t our crosses bring us more grace by immitating Christ on his cross? Because without them how could we ever lean and do what he wants us to do? Faith without works isnt that what it means by fruitless!

 

[Tomster]

OSAS is a failure for two simple reasons. and all the arguing back and forth won’t change that fact.

The first reason is that - Jesus never taught it
This is abundantly Clear in John 17

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15** I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one**.

Who is Jesus Speaking of Here - THE APOSTLES
If OSAS were True then Jesus need not Ask the Father to “KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL ONE”

It is Also Clear in Matthew 13 the Soer and seed -
Not only does Jesus give us the parable but explains it in the Recorded Scripture:
18 “Therefore hear the parable of the sower: 19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. 20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
I only highlighted the one section because the term "endure is one that is echoed in other places.
So - All you folks who believe in OSAS, did you receive the Word with Joy? Are you enduring? Can you know tha tyou will “Endure” to the end?

In order for me to accept OSAS it would have to be AIR TIGHT Doctrine otherwise I risk falling into the sin of arrogance and luke warm faith. So long as a single passage exists that demonstrates that OSAS is false, then THAT is the best course to take.
Why?
Because, as has been shown on this thread there are any number of passeges in the Bible that deflate, or at least call into question the idea of OSAS. AND
Because it keeps me growing in faith. It keeps me seeking after the Lord. It keeps me seeking after holiness and thereby (hopefully) being fruitful - a good and faithful servant.

Now the second reason I know that OSAS is wrong is because The Church has never held it to be true.
Yes - The Church, - which has been been studying and proofing teachings since Day One of the Christian Era.
The Church - Founded by Christ upon a group of men whom He spent three years training and upon others who followed them.
The Church - Whom Christ gave the Poser to Bind and Loose so I do not have to keep rehashing ideas that were looked at debated and decided upon long ago. Thus freeing me up to pursue greater actions to both build up my own faith AND the faith of others.

Peace
James

Thanks James. And if I may throw my two cents worth in? Christ’s death on the Cross did not justify us, but only provided for us the opportunity to be saved. In the ages following on the sin of Adam, no one, however just, could enter heaven. And yet, on the first page of the little catechism I was taught from as a child I recall reading: “Why did God make you?” And the answer given was “God made me to know Him, to love Him, and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next.” So this is the purpose of life, this is why we were created, why we were born. But how could we hope for eternal life and lasting happiness, in the state and condition to which Adam had fallen and which we inherited?

We look around us, and within ourselves, and we realize that, left to our own rersources, we never could. Yet our religion teaches us that our Savior has placed this supernatural happiness within the reach of us all. It is within reach because He bought back what Adam had thrown away; this buying back is called the Redemption.

Redemption was won for all mankind. It is general; there are no exceptions. Salvation is individual, and being saved is a process.

 

[JRKH]

I would ask you rforgiveness for my snide remoarks in my previous post.
By the time I thought better of them it was too late to delete the posting.
I would like to restate my comments in a more charitable manner.

Actually you COULD just stop at John 17 where Jesus prayed for the preservation of his own. ANY CHANCE JESUS’ PRAYER WOULDN’T BE HONORED? Maybe in your book.

Why would He make the petition if there was no chance they could be lost to the Evil one?
So long as this verse exists in the Christian Bible we must accept the POSSIBILITY that such a prayer might not be answered.

Jesus clearly says “My sheep hear my voice and they follow me and I give unto them eternal life, AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH” Did He say NEVER? In my logic, that would mean that IF you are one of His sheep, you have a promise in your hand. If that promise is uttered now of you, then it is true, and it says you will NEVER perish.

Of course Jesus also talks of the “lost Sheep”. Who could that be unless it is one who was already part of the flock?
Mark Well what Jesus says in Matthew 18:
13 **And if he should find **it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
He says “If” not when.

Look also at the Prodigal Son -
Was not the Prodigal Son once a part of the his Father’s House?
Did he not Leave voluntarily?
Did he not Squander his inheritance?
IF he had not voluntarily returned meekly and humbly to his Father would he have not died in darkness - alone and without comfort?

Again - So long as these verses exists in the Bible, it casts doubt upon OSAS and we must reject it.

Or what about this in John 6…

“37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

What was that about Jesus not teaching it?

This is indeed a strong statement by Jesus about those who belong to Him.
BUT note that Jesus says He will not “DRIVE” them away. He says Nothing about them departing of their own accord.
Indeed all who look to the Son and Believes in Him will have eternal Life.
BUT If one believes on The Son and Later recants that belief He forfeits His Eternal Life if he dies in that opposition to Christ.

And that is why you are wrong about the Church not teaching it. They have and do, because it is as plain as the nose on your face.

The Church teaches thate may have a confidence and Hope, even assurance of our salvation, but we cannot KNOW in the sense that OSAS purports.

But what your corner of the church is teaching is not what you would call Amazing Grace. What would you call it? I call it, with Paul, ‘another gospel’.

And there you would be wrong for you do not KNOW what “my corner of the Church” truly teaches.
Allow me to illume you on this:
From the Catachism:
1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.

I wuold suggest that you spend a bit of time looking through the catachism at the link provided. It is searchable is quite user friendly.

Peace
James

 

[Jerry_Marino]

What you need to explain Jerry is why God desires all to be saved and yet doesnt will it.
God is omniscient and omnipotent. Why would He have a desire that is unworthy of being fulfilled by His Will?

did your parents will it over you to love them?

if God were to will it like you say we’d all be robotic by a ruling, dictating God rather than a loving, merciful and gracious God.

God bless

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Jesus does not HOLD on to us if we will to leave Him.

In Corinthians it says that “Love does not demand its own way”

God is love.

Therefore God does not demand His own way.

If we want to leave He lets us leave.

If you don’t believe that then go join the puppets!

1 John 5:18 We know that no one begotten by God sins; but the one begotten by God he protects, and the evil one cannot touch him. 19 We know that we belong to God, and the whole world is under the power of the evil one. 20 We also know that the Son of God has come and has given us discernment to know the one who is true. And we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 21 Children, be on your guard against idols.

The letter concludes with a summary of the themes of the letter (1 John 5:18-20). There is a sharp antithesis between the children of God and those belonging to the world and to the evil one. The Son reveals the God of truth; Christians dwell in the true God, in his Son, and have eternal life. The final verse (1 John 5:21) voices a perennial warning about idols, any type of rival to God.

God bless

 

[Jerry_Marino]

I messed this up.

Lets try again…
Only those who persevere to the end will be saved
Being Christian does not eliminate the possibility of NOT persevering to the end
Therefore, not all Christians will be saved because some will not persevere to the end.

oxymoron, how can it be that a Christian not be saved?

maybe you mean that if one does not persevere he was not one to begin with. just someone who claimed to be a Christian an apostate.

God bless.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Naturally, Catholics say “Amen” to this verse but we understand it a little differently. OSAS proponents apparently believe that this verse demonstrates that the “true believer” cannot be lost because Jesus says, “they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” We believe that this verse has to be understood in the greater context of the gospel and that it requires a little analysis to be fully appreciated.

This verse has to be read along side John 17:7-12 which reads, “Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee; for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine; all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says,” My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”

While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection and we cannot be snatched from Jesus’s or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent. Moreover, if Jesus was teaching OSAS he would not have been praying to the Father for the apostles and for us in this fashion. There would simply be no need for these prayers for they would have no impact on our salvation because our salvation would be a done deal.

thank you for helping me in proving once saved always saved my friend, judas was not saved though was he?

who is judas? the son of perdition is he not?

why was he lost? to fulfill the Scriptures, was it not?

therefore this was in God’s plan, my friend.

*The passage records words from Jesus’ last prayer, the one just before His death. In that prayer Jesus said only one of His disciples was lost, the son of perdition. The Greek word for “perdition” is APOLEIA which means “destruction, waste, loss, ruin, or perishing.” Jesus is simply saying that one His twelve disciples was eternally lost. He was not saved. This was a fulfillment of the prophecy found in Psalm 41:9.

Jesus knew who His betrayer was from the start of His ministry. This can be seen in the following verses.

** Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him. (NASB) John 6:70-71

And during supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him . . . (NASB) John 13:2

I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.’ (NASB) John 13:18

When Jesus had said this, He became troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will betray Me.” The disciples began looking at one another, at a loss to know of which one He was speaking . . . Simon Peter therefore gestured to him, and said to him, “Tell us who it is of whom He is speaking.” . . . Jesus therefore answered, “That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him.” So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. And after the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Jesus therefore said to him, “What you do, do quickly.” (NASB) John 13:21-27**

again i thank you for John 17:7-12

Jesus is praying that God keep us!!!

Thank you Lord!

Hallelujah!

God bless you all.

 

[Philthy]

Hi Philthy. Why is it that they feel works of law are the same as good works. I don’t get it.

What I don’t understand either they accept as we do that Jesus died on the cross so we could have eternal life. But then turn around and reject their crosses. How can we accept Jesus and say we love him. but then turn around and reject the crosses that he gave US to carry. Isn’t it by our crosses and how we carry them that we are tested to see what kind of faith we really have. Isn’t it our acceptance of those crosses (good works) what shows true faith. And how can we even begin to accept those crosses without faith, and then turn around and say we have faith, but reject the works that that faith bring us to.

Don’t our crosses bring us more grace by immitating Christ on his cross? Because without them how could we ever lean and do what he wants us to do? Faith without works isnt that what it means by fruitless!

Hi Rinnie -

Dont be discouraged or exasperated. As James opined earlier in the thread - most OSAS adherents probably dont actually believe in OSAS - they simply are upholding the Calvinist tradition that they have received. Perhaps that is a cross that we are given to bear, with love. I like to think that most OSAS adherents actually do bear the crosses that come their way, though imperfectly like the rest of us. It still represents a danger to those who are less informed in the faith and who might take the doctrine as a license to sin without consequence. Undoubtedly many such folks watch threads such as this one in the background as lurkers, so to speak. It is primarily for their benefit that I offer comments on threads such as this one.