OSAS

[TheWhoFreak]

Hey Jerry, you ignored my question. In the snowball’s chance in a bonfire you didn’t see it, here it is again:

A question for Jerry Marino: Let’s assume that OSAS is true. Let’s also assume that we are saved by Faith Alone, Grace Alone, in Christ Alone (like most Protestants believe). Now, say a person accepts Christ and is saved ***as a child (age 10-13) ***and lives a great Christian life for a few years. Would that same person still be saved if they went and became a serial rapist/murderer? What if they started a genocide, would they still be saved because they accepted Christ prior to their awful deeds.

Note: I’ve asked this question before but no one answered it properly. All those who tried thought I asked if they would be saved if they accepted Christ after they did those horrible deeds. I’ll say it again. Would that person still be saved if they had accepted Christ BEFORE doing those terrible things?

 

[Jerry_Marino]

a person who is truly saved, freak would not commit such acts as you point out.

so your point?

just cause a person says a prayer doesn’t mean they are saved just like an infant who is baptized isn’t saved.

God bless

 

[davidv]

a person who is truly saved, freak would not commit such acts as you point out.

so your point?

just cause a person says a prayer doesn’t mean they are saved just like an infant who is baptized isn’t saved.

God bless

IF this is true, then the only logical conclusion is that no one, not one, can claim they are saved. To claim so assumes that one knows perfectly that they will never commit such act. No human knows everything, so this is imposible. Therefore no one knows they are saved.

 

[Lampo]

If a person claims to be saved, aren’t they judging themselves and thus going against Scripture? (1 Cor. 4:4-6)

 

[Cbailey2]

a person who is truly saved, freak would not commit such acts as you point out.

so your point?

just cause a person says a prayer doesn’t mean they are saved just like an infant who is baptized isn’t saved.

God bless

For the extreme examples listed above, perhaps that is true, but with your model their is no way to prove otherwise. When confronted with an obvious example of a sinner who previously seemed to be a devout Christian, an OSASer has to judge what only God can judge (that the person never really had faith to begin with) rather than deal with a reality where sin is a violence to faith and leads to death, where a good Christian can choose in free will something other than God. Which prompts the question, if a good Christian cannot choose to serve a different master than God, can they choose to love him (free will being a necessity to true love)? Does free will end where faith begins? If that is the case, why did God bother with free will to begin with, knowing what Adam and Eve would choose?

Of course, to this you will reply (at least I would if I were you): a true believer will never choose to serve a different master than God. But this ignores the fact that “all sin” and that we may only serve one master, God or an idol. Sin in itself is a rejection of God, is it not? In order to claim that a true believer would never choose to serve a different master (be it drugs, alcohol, lust, envy, greed,etc.), you would need to claim that, in having true faith, one is freed not just from the consequences of sin but from sin itself. That a true Christian ceases to sin! But I don’t think any of us would claim this, as it a) contradicts scripture and b) is so obviously false from empirical experience.

The point is: big sin or little sin (it’s tragic that this gradation is denied by many protestants in one breath and then used to justify OSAS in another) both do violence to our relationship with God. You must either accept that a murderer and rapist who previously was born again has eternal life in spite of their affront to God or you must admit that small, time repeat offense sinners who never ask for forgiveness might not.

Fundamentally, it all comes down to free will: God thought it important enough for man to be able to choose (or not choose him) that He was willing to give His only son so that we could have it. He knew Adam and Eve would fall: that they, in their state of grace, their communion with God in His perfect creation, would choose sin over God, and in doing so, enter into death. If OSAS were true, there would be no need for the incarnation of Christ, for His suffering, His death, and His resurrection, because the consequence of Adam and Eve’s Sin would not have been death. Or, as the serpent urged: “You certainly will not die!”

 

[SteveGC]

Well put, Cb

 

[TheWhoFreak]

a person who is truly saved, freak would not commit such acts as you point out.

so your point?

just cause a person says a prayer doesn’t mean they are saved just like an infant who is baptized isn’t saved.

God bless

My point is that Scripture goes against your statements. Let’s use Judas Iscariot as an example. Judas, as a follower of Christ, would have been “saved” in the sense you use it, until he betrayed Jesus. Do you really think Judas is in Heaven, because he’s a great real-life example of my question. BTW, don’t tell me that Judas was never a true Apostle. God gifted him as much as the other Apostles, but Satan tricked him into betraying Jesus.

We cannot know who is truly saved. To say we do is arrogant and suggests we have knowledge of things only God knows. This is pride at its worst, and it was pride that caused Adam to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

This has probably been covered already, but when Jesus says “For God so loved the world that He gave his only Son, so whomever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life”, it doesn’t say where we will spend eternity. The only time in Scripture where Jesus assures someone of eternal life in Heaven is when He says to the criminal who defended Him, “Amen I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise”. All other places in Scripture say that believers will have eternal life, but it does not specify where. This leaves God the option of sending those belivers who walk away from Him to Hell.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

IF this is true, then the only logical conclusion is that no one, not one, can claim they are saved. To claim so assumes that one knows perfectly that they will never commit such act. No human knows everything, so this is imposible. Therefore no one knows they are saved.

i know that i am saved

 

[Jerry_Marino]

believe people! not in what i say but what God says!

 

[CentralFLJames]

believe people! not in what i say but what God says!

The problem Jerry is that every one else hears God saying something different than what you say you are hearing. The apostles told us to hold true to their teaching traditions and not a single apostle ever taught a thing called OSAS, nor sola scriptura. In fact the apostles explicitly warn us not to follow men who teach us things we want to hear:
2 Peter 1:20
But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation

2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

2 Peter 3:14-18
So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, **make every effort to be found spotless, blameless *and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

Did you read that Jerry: be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. One is “secure” or “on base” so to speak if they are baptised into Christ’s Church - but the moment one gets off base and wanders from the true teaching they are NOT SAFE.

2 Peter 3:14-18 simultaneously kills sola sciptura and OSAS. This tells us explicitly that believing in mere doctrine taught unlawfully by false teachers (those who are not apostolically chosen teachers in His Church) is NOT ENOUGH and not only might lead to destruction - WILL. THAT IS NOT “BEING SAVED” by “just believing” NOW IS IT JERRY? You believe in a lie rather than in the teachings of Jesus & His apostles and you will NOT be saved.

Be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men who are ignorant and unschooled in apostolic teachings of the scriptural things that are hard to understand. There is no such thing as private interpretation - and this is especially true when that private and ignorant interpretation was known to NOT EVER have been taught by an apostle nor handed down to us by their traditions.

James

 

[TheWhoFreak]

i know that i am saved

No, you just think you are. I’m not saying you’re not saved, but to say that you know that you are saved is extreme pride IMHO. It means that you know things that only God can know and lifts you up equal with God.

As I said in my last post Jerry, we are NEVER assured of Salvation. Scripture says that all believers will have eternal life, sure, but does it say where we will spend eternal life??? Jerry, the only place Scripture assures anyone’s Salvation is when Jesus is on the Cross, and he tells the criminal he will be with him in Paradise. That is the ONLY time where someone’s Salvation is guaranteed in Scripture.

 

[Lampo]

i know that i am saved

”I do not judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but that does not mean I am acquitted. It is the Lord Who judges me.” - 1 Cor. 4:3-4

Are you judging yourself by your statement above?

 

[Jerry_Marino]

keep working for your salvation while stand on the promise of God.

 

[paul_c]

keep working for your salvation while stand on the promise of God.

The promise of God.is that those who do his will will spend eternity with him in heaven. Have you read Matthew 25: 31-46?

When Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’

Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Who goes to heaven? Its those that do the will of God, loving the least fortunate.

How about Matthew 7: 21:
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
Can it be any more clear?

 

[Jerry_Marino]

i know what scripture says, but one is not save by keeping the commandments rather one keeping the commandments is the result of being saved. if you are relying on your effort to keep the commandments you will never enter the kingdom of heaven, trust in the work of Jesus Christ my friend.

God bless.

 

[paul_c]

i know what scripture says, but one is not save by keeping the commandments rather one keeping the commandments is the result of being saved. if you are relying on your effort to keep the commandments you will never enter the kingdom of heaven, trust in the work of Jesus Christ my friend.

God bless.

Its hard to believe that you are now at the point of denying scripture to support your personal theology. Don’t you think there’s a problem in your theology when you have to do that?

Scriptures calls on us to Love God and to love our neighbor as ourselves. This means to do good for all without expecting anything in return. As Jesus said, this sums up the Commandments and the prophets. So if you love, you will keep the commandments and you will be saved. And if you falter, get reconciled to God through the sacraments and renew your efforts. God will be merciful to those that continue working on their sanctification.

 

[rinnie]

i know what scripture says, but one is not save by keeping the commandments rather one keeping the commandments is the result of being saved. if you are relying on your effort to keep the commandments you will never enter the kingdom of heaven, trust in the work of Jesus Christ my friend.

God bless.

Jerry what is the difference. I agree that it is with the Grace of Christ we are saved, and yes it is with that Grace that helps us to keep the commandments. But rather you have been baptised or not. You still must live your life by that Faith,and grace. It is still by our effort that is made possible by God’s grace to keep the commandmemts. If one is baptised he has received the Grace I agree, but God gave us free will to accept that grace or not. That is up to us. And if we accept that Grace we must live by the commandmemts. What you are saying is when God gave us that Grace he took over our free will. That is not true. You can fall from grace by sin. You cannot have grace and sin at the same time. Is that what you are saying? Because you cannot sin and be free from sin at that same time. You either are living in the grace of God which is without sin or you arent? How do you explain grace and sin? Unless you are saying that if we have Grace we cannot possibly sin. That is nuts? Could you explain how we can live and never commit a sin? Can you say you have done this?

The bible says you are either hot or cold. You cannot be lukewarm. You are either hot and in the full grace of God, or you are Cold and have sin. You are saying lukewarm are you not?

 

[CentralFLJames]

Jerry what is the difference. I agree that it is with the Grace of Christ we are saved, and yes it is with that Grace that helps us to keep the commandments. But rather you have been baptised or not. You still must live your life by that Faith,and grace.
…

You cannot have grace and sin at the same time. Is that what you are saying? Because you cannot sin and be free from sin at that same time. You either are living in the grace of God which is without sin or you arent? How do you explain grace and sin? Unless you are saying that if we have Grace we cannot possibly sin. That is nuts? Could you explain how we can live and never commit a sin? Can you say you have done this?

The bible says you are either hot or cold. You cannot be lukewarm. You are either hot and in the full grace of God, or you are Cold and have sin. You are saying lukewarm are you not?

This is the problem with the “poison” of OSAS.

There are 2 varieties:

1. Those who think that once they “believe” that there is forensic-legal declaration that they simply can do nothing considered sinful. This is the mindset of the Jim Jones purple Kool-Aid, The Branch Davidian, and Paul Jennings Hill type fundamentalists and some Southern Baptists. In their minds once one makes that altar call “the law” no longer comes into bear at all and ANYTHING they do is OK with God since they are “covered in the blood of Christ”. It’s a licence to sin but they will disavow this and say that would be an abuse of their salvation. So they “try” to do good but if they backslide its no big deal since “they are covered”. The reality is that they can literally go fornicate or murder someone and be inwardly as red as scarlet with sin or have literally blood all over their hands but Jesus’ blood covers over all their “filthy flesh” and makes it all right before God. It’s the old ‘snow covered dunghill’ view of salvation that won’t pass the sniff-test with a rational man much less God.
2. Those who believe once they are “truly truly truly saved” (usually after shopping around and finding “the right church” or maybe getting the right re-baptism with the right “gawdly preacher”) that they are finally a regenerate elect that has “come into his own”. Now that they are truly truly saved God’s grace is so efficacious and irresistible that its literally impossible to ever conceive of sinning again. But when they find themselves cheating on their taxes, or losing their tempers, or judging everyone else as “unsaved” and going to hell they psychologically can never see it or if they do its not seen as sin since that would be “impossible” for one of God’s elect – so it must be just one’s imagination or the devil testing their faith. It’s jus another form of hubris that creats gaping blind spots. So to this kind whatever they do is “justified” and “righteous” even though it might look like sin to a unsaved and unelect heathen but God already forgave it all.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Jerry,
you need to modernize your Protestant perspective. Many Protestants are discovering that Luther and the gang had it all wrong about faith and works and have mis-equated Faith with Salvation. What Luther did not consider is that first century Jews never thought of themselves “individually” as saved but rather “as a people” saved. Thus Paul was NOT condeming ritual and traditions as invalid works but was saying that the Gentiles need not adapt them since all that was important was to enter into the new Christian Covenant - but salvation is through the community of believers - i.e. what Catholics have been saying all along The Church. In other words - NOONE gets to heaven without being in the arc of The Church.

The new thinking is called New Perspective on Paul (NPP) and is taking over the Protestant world by storm and causing many to say that Protestantism simply mislead everyone and many are converting to Catholicism.

Check it out:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul
thepaulpage.com/Summary.html
thepaulpage.com/

James

 

[rinnie]

Yes Central James you are correct. And many Protestants are seeing this. Paul was saying that gentiles need not be held to the customs of the Old law. By the death of Jesus we are in the new law. It was Paul who explained to them that they need not be circumcised. That by the blood of Christ we are circumcised by the heart.

1 cor 9:19-23

It took Jas 2:14-18 to send a letter to set them straight.