OSAS

[Jerry_Marino]

First what you all have to look at is what have you done to be saved, then go from there.

 

[rinnie]

First what you all have to look at is what have you done to be saved, then go from there.

Jerry then we have no where to Go. No one has done anything to merit Grace. It was a free gift from God. He did it because he loves us. Just because Jesus left us the Church for the forgiveness of sins, has nothing to do with our merits. It all comes back to Gods love for us. Just because we believe that the Priest has the Power to forgive sin, takes nothing away from the Death on the Cross. Jesus knew that we could not live without sin, the O.T. proved that. So Jesus wiped out original sin because he loved us. Then he left the Church with the Power of the Holy SPirit to forgive sin because he loved us. All he asks for us is to obey his teachings and his commandments. If God felt that we could be cleared of Original sin, and then sin no more he would never have given the Power of forgiveness of sins to Man. But he indeed did because he knew that we all sin.

If you feel that you have never sinned God Bless you. Because you are the only one. Jesus said we all sin. The only 2 people who were never born into original sin is JEsus and the Blessed Mother. If you believe that you were not born into original sin before Baptism you are very misled. And if you believe that you cannot sin after being saved from Original sin again you are very misled. We are all sinners. I do not understand where you have gotten this, but it was sure not from scripture.

 

[fbl9]

Kudos to the both of yous James and Rinnie…

 

[TheWhoFreak]

Kudos to the both of yous James and Rinnie…

Jerry, I want to ask you a question. Let’s go back to my previous example about the Christian who was saved and then did all that bad stuff. Let’s say he lived a Spirit-filled life for 30 years before doing those things. Don’t say that it is impossible for that to happen, this is a theoretical scenario. You would say that he was never saved to begin with. My problem is that he would have prayed to recieve Christ when he became a Christian right? So if he was never saved to begin with, did God just ignore his prayer? Methinks not, as evidenced by the Spirit-filled life. What say you Jerry?

 

[rinnie]

I think it goes back to one thing. Grace and sin. To be Christlike is to be completely free from sin. So if you want to be like Christ you must be full of Grace like the Blessed Mother. She was full of grace completely free from sin. That is why God was so close to her all the time. When you are in the state of sin, you separate yourself from God, You must repent and confess that sin, and have it forgiven. Then by doing that you remove the barrier between you and God again. Jesus came into this world to save sinners, not join in the sin with them. If they wanted Jesus they confessed and accepted him, and his commandments. If not they walked away. Thats says it all walked away means to separate.

 

[SteveGC]

So if you want to be like Christ you must be full of Grace like the Blessed Mother. She was full of grace completely free from sin. That is why God was so close to her all the time.

Yes indeed. Good point, rinnie. And how close was He to her? He was literally a part of her as He grew in her womb. The epitome of closeness. Can not get closer than Mary was to Christ…physically and spiritually.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

Jerry, I want to ask you a question. Let’s go back to my previous example about the Christian who was saved and then did all that bad stuff. Let’s say he lived a Spirit-filled life for 30 years before doing those things. Don’t say that it is impossible for that to happen, this is a theoretical scenario. You would say that he was never saved to begin with. My problem is that he would have prayed to recieve Christ when he became a Christian right? So if he was never saved to begin with, did God just ignore his prayer? Methinks not, as evidenced by the Spirit-filled life. What say you Jerry?

let’s go back into the Bible where God promises us the assurance and the seal of salvation, not me. first of all Jesus came to save sinners, we all agree on that i am sure. jn 3:16 tells us that all who believe will have eternal life.

so to be sure of salvation one must know he or she is saved would you not think?

i am sure of my salvation, i know that i am. this is not boasting by no means, just confident that what God has started in me He will finish.

are you sure?

of course not! we would not be having this different view of God’s word if you were sure.

God bless.

 

[Mannyfit75]

let’s go back into the Bible where God promises us the assurance and the seal of salvation, not me. first of all Jesus came to save sinners, we all agree on that i am sure. jn 3:16 tells us that all who believe will have eternal life.

so to be sure of salvation one must know he or she is saved would you not think?

i am sure of my salvation, i know that i am. this is not boasting by no means, just confident that what God has started in me He will finish.

are you sure?

of course not! we would not be having this different view of God’s word if you were sure.

God bless.

It is not the question of you are sure that you are save. It is the question of, have I been faithful to God and his commandments. Do I love him with all my heart, my mind, my soul, etc…? Have I sinned against the Lord by disobeying his commandments?

Salvation is process. We can lose our salvation if we do you keep his commandments period. If we do sin, we have to repent and ask for God’s mercy.

Put yourself in this situation, picture yourself as man being Judge by Jesus on the Last Day by reading this passage in the Bible. Which one describe you the most Matthew 25:21-46:

[31]"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
[32] Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,
[33] and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.
[34] Then the King will say to those at his right hand, Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; [35] for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, [36] I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' [37] Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
[38] And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?
[39] And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’
[40] And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

or

[41] Then he will say to those at his left hand, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; [42] for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, [43] I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' [44] Then they also will answer, Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’
[45] Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’
[46] And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

It wasn’t only his faith that save him.

 

[SteveGC]

let’s go back into the Bible where God promises us the assurance and the seal of salvation, not me. first of all Jesus came to save sinners, we all agree on that i am sure. jn 3:16 tells us that all who believe will have eternal life.

so to be sure of salvation one must know he or she is saved would you not think?

i am sure of my salvation, i know that i am. this is not boasting by no means, just confident that what God has started in me He will finish.

are you sure?

of course not! we would not be having this different view of God’s word if you were sure.

God bless.

Jerry, four things for you…

1. what do you make of people who aren’t as absolute in their confidence of their eternal destiny as you are? Is their lack of 100% confidence a sign to you that they do not believe, nor follow, Christ? If so, I would argue that the level of one’s confidence in their eternal destiny is in no way proportionate to, or even a reflection of, their faith and discipleship in Christ. If I’m driving cross-country somewhere, and I’m not 100% certain if I will make it there in one piece, do I stop driving? Do I stop following the road I’m on that leads me there? Just because I don’t know the outcome, it has no bearing on my belief that the road will lead me there if I keep driving. I am just as faithful to the driving as another driver who’s convinced himself 100% that he WILL make it to his destination. I’m wondering why you think confidence is a valid measure of faith? Is not faith more appropriately described as belief and acceptance without the possession of full knowledge of any outcome? And wouldn’t you agree that Christians are called to be faithful throughout their entire lives? If you think about it, what use is there for lifelong faith, if one is already 100% assured in their mind of their fate? All I’m saying is that the essence of “faith” is perpetual belief and discipleship, not an instantaneous or one-time proclamation of salvation.
2. Catholics actually ARE confident in their salvation. We have a reasonable and moral assurance of it, which is to say that we know our eternal destiny is with God so long as we truly follow Christ until the end of our lives. Using my analogy, we know that if we keep driving, following the rules of the road, stay within the lines, we will eventually make it home. Knowing that about us, why would it be still so important for you to preach the necessity of absolute, here-and-now, assurance?
3. In order to be assured like you are, would you say it’s most important to be a true believer in Jesus, or a true follower of Jesus? If it’s both, or just “follower”, why do you cite only Jn 3:16, which does not specifically talk about following?
4. you didn’t actually answer Freak’s question when you responded to him. Could you respond to his theoretical scenario more directly? Thanks.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

well who has been faithful totally?

salvation is not a process but sanctification is, we are being sanctified. we are justified upon belief in what Christ did on the Cross for us.

okay i picture myself being judged by God and all the question would be asked if i deserve eternal life with Him and i will say no but i believe in your Son who you sent to die in my place, i am not worthy of such grace, He paid in full for my pardon.

1 Peter 1:17 Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, 18
realizing that you were ransomed from your futile conduct, handed on by your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold 19 but with the precious blood of Christ as of a spotless unblemished lamb.

Christians have received the redemption prophesied by Isaiah (Isaiah 52:3), through the blood (Jewish symbol of life) of the spotless lamb (Isaiah 53:7, 10; John 1:29; Romans 3:24-25; cf 1 Cor 6:20). notice the commentator does not mention water.

*1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life. 13 I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.
*
The gist of the divine witness or testimony is that eternal life (1 John 5:11-12) is given in Christ and nowhere else. To possess the Son is not acceptance of a doctrine but of a person who lives now and provides life.

believe in Jesus Christ for your salvation,

God bless

 

[Mannyfit75]

believe in Jesus Christ for your salvation,

God bless

Really. So Demons too are saved by your insistence that we are required to believe?

James wrote a passage that belief is not enough:

You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe – and shudder - James 2:19…

and this passages goes on saying,

[20] Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?
[22] You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works,
[23] and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God.
[24] You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
[25] And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
[26] For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.

 

[SteveGC]

well who has been faithful totally?

salvation is not a process but sanctification is, we are being sanctified. we are justified upon belief in what Christ did on the Cross for us.

I never understood how sanctification can be separated from justification. Jerry, what exactly are you being sanctified for, if your eternal destiny is ALREADY and unequivocally heaven?? Are you saying God already claimed you will undoubtedly be in heaven…and now He is making you holy so that you can enter it? This makes no sense…specifically the “already justified” part. If you are already justified, you are, by definition, at that moment worthy (through the merit of Christ) to enter heaven. What’s the point of on-going sanctification? The Catholic doctrine of salvation makes much more sense. We are NOT instantaneously justified to enter heaven upon our assent of belief…which is why we are continuously being sanctified/justified throughout our lives (through Gracious faith and obedience) to prepare us for our room in the Father’s mansion.

okay i picture myself being judged by God and all the question would be asked if i deserve eternal life with Him and i will say no but i believe in your Son who you sent to die in my place, i am not worthy of such grace, He paid in full for my pardon.

*1 Peter 1:17 Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, **conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, ***18 realizing that you were ransomed from your futile conduct, handed on by your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold 19 but with the precious blood of Christ as of a spotless unblemished lamb.

I bolded a portion of this scripture, Jerry. Now, why would Peter implore us to sustain ourselves throughout our lives if we have ALREADY been declared holy and heaven-bound? The “realizing you were ransomed from your futile conduct” does not indicate we have been declared heaven-bound, Jerry. It indicates that we are no longer enslaved to sin, as we were before Christ’s atonement. That is actually what salvation means. It’s different from our judgment. Judgment points to eternal destiny. Salvation points to freedom from sin…if we cooperate with that freedom in Christ.

Christians have received the redemption prophesied by Isaiah (Isaiah 52:3), through the blood (Jewish symbol of life) of the spotless lamb (Isaiah 53:7, 10; John 1:29; Romans 3:24-25; cf 1 Cor 6:20). notice the commentator does not mention water.

OK, we’re not talking about baptism…I thought we were talking about OSAS. Anyway, exactly which verse says we “have received the redemption”? Or is this someone’s interpretation of some of these verses you cite?

*1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life. 13 I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.
*
The gist of the divine witness or testimony is that eternal life (1 John 5:11-12) is given in Christ and nowhere else. To possess the Son is not acceptance of a doctrine but of a person who lives now and provides life.

Where does Scripture say that “to possess the Son is acceptance of Jesus?” You seem to rely heavily on other people’s interpretations of all these verses you use. Does your faith gravitate toward the teachings of these men whose commentaries you love to cite?

believe in Jesus Christ for your salvation,

That…and more, Jerry.

Could you respond to the 4 points of my previous post? Thanks.

 

[rinnie]

well who has been faithful totally?

salvation is not a process but sanctification is, we are being sanctified. we are justified upon belief in what Christ did on the Cross for us.

okay i picture myself being judged by God and all the question would be asked if i deserve eternal life with Him and i will say no but i believe in your Son who you sent to die in my place, i am not worthy of such grace, He paid in full for my pardon.

1 Peter 1:17 Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, 18
realizing that you were ransomed from your futile conduct, handed on by your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold 19 but with the precious blood of Christ as of a spotless unblemished lamb.

Christians have received the redemption prophesied by Isaiah (Isaiah 52:3), through the blood (Jewish symbol of life) of the spotless lamb (Isaiah 53:7, 10; John 1:29; Romans 3:24-25; cf 1 Cor 6:20). notice the commentator does not mention water.

*1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life. 13 I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.
*
The gist of the divine witness or testimony is that eternal life (1 John 5:11-12) is given in Christ and nowhere else. To possess the Son is not acceptance of a doctrine but of a person who lives now and provides life.

believe in Jesus Christ for your salvation,

God bless

Okay Jerry, you just answered your own question. If God asked you if you do you deserve eternal life, You said No. Now stop right there. You have a good point there is going to be judgement day. Now you just judged yourself. You said No, I am not good enough to enter heaven. Now do you not believe that its Gods turn to judge you? Because what you just said is no God, but you son was good and he died for my sins, So I don’t have to worry about my sins. But see Jerry God didn’t say that you did. Jesus said that there is no sin that we can do that we cannot be forgiven for except to deny God. BUt he said in order to be forgiven we must repent, confesss and sin not more. Now you wiped all of that out, you said no we don’t Jesus did all that for us by dying on the Cross. So now its your words against the words of Christ.

You have to open your eyes Jerry. We are all saved from original sin. DO you not believe we were born into original sin. If you believe that Jerry why do we have death? Was it not the sins of Adam and Eve that caused death?

 

[CentralFLJames]

believe in Jesus Christ for your salvation,

God bless

If you get alzheimer’s and you forgot you made your altar call and that you even know who Jesus is are you saved Jerry?

As my prior link indicated when Paul wrote his discourses on faith he was speaking to a Jewish COMMUNITY and in that context there is a notion of “a people of God”. He was not speaking of individual faith in an of itself seperate from the community. Having faith is having a covenential faith - a faith in God’s promise to HIS people. One can not have a lone-ranger sort of faith - seperate from God’s people. The Catholic Church are the People of God and it includes the original Jews who converted (and the remnant that will still come in the last days) and the rest of the universal family that enter into her. Outside of The Church there is no salvation - one MUST be bound to The Catholic Church formally or by desire through other faith communities (but when doing so must not remain seperate out of obstinacy and disobedience to authority).

What the New Perspective on Paul Protestants have finally resolved CORRECTLY is that sola fide are the correct words BUT the WRONG understanding. No Church - No Faith.

Faith ≠ Salvation

Salvation is not a one time event nor is it an event held in isolation to itself. Believing requires the context of the family of God IN the community of believers. Believing in a solo faith is believing in the unity of oneself over the unity of God’s family. THAT is a different faith than the “faith of our fathers” of the early church. Stick with the real thing - not a fabricated faith that never was…

James

 

[Lampo]

let’s go back into the Bible where God promises us the assurance and the seal of salvation,

If we keep His commandments, persevere in faith, hope and love, cooperate with that grace and finish the race.

first of all Jesus came to save sinners,

Jesus himself said he came to bear witness to the truth. (John 18:37)

jn 3:16 tells us that all who believe will have eternal life.

So we don’t even to to love God?

so to be sure of salvation one must know he or she is saved would you not think?

Which is impossible.

i am sure of my salvation, i know that i am. this is not boasting by no means, just confident that what God has started in me He will finish.

Wow! Saint Paul didn’t even do this! “But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man’s day; but neither do I judge my own self. For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord. Therefore judge not before the time; until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts; and then shall every man have praise from God.” (1 Cor. 4:3-5)

 

[paul_c]

well who has been faithful totally?

salvation is not a process but sanctification is, we are being sanctified. we are justified upon belief in what Christ did on the Cross for us.

okay i picture myself being judged by God and all the question would be asked if i deserve eternal life with Him and i will say no but i believe in your Son who you sent to die in my place, i am not worthy of such grace, He paid in full for my pardon.

1 Peter 1:17 Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning, 18
realizing that you were ransomed from your futile conduct, handed on by your ancestors, not with perishable things like silver or gold 19 but with the precious blood of Christ as of a spotless unblemished lamb.

Christians have received the redemption prophesied by Isaiah (Isaiah 52:3), through the blood (Jewish symbol of life) of the spotless lamb (Isaiah 53:7, 10; John 1:29; Romans 3:24-25; cf 1 Cor 6:20). notice the commentator does not mention water.

*1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever possesses the Son has life; whoever does not possess the Son of God does not have life. 13 I write these things to you so that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God.
*
The gist of the divine witness or testimony is that eternal life (1 John 5:11-12) is given in Christ and nowhere else. To possess the Son is not acceptance of a doctrine but of a person who lives now and provides life.

believe in Jesus Christ for your salvation,

God bless

Jerry, the very verses you quote, deny that salvation is by faith alone and with that, that once you have faith you are saved.

1 Peter 1:17 : Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one’s works

Notice, you are being judged based on works, not on faith. Works demonstrate Faith. Faith without works is dead. (James 2: 24)

Sure, Salvation is thorugh Jesus Christ. We all agree to that. But after we come ot believe (and are baptized), we need to demonstrate that Faith through works. Sanctification is required for Salvation. We must die in the state of Grace to be saved and we do that by following God’s commandments to love god and Love each other.

When Jesus was asked what it takes to gain eternal life, he never says “Faith”. It is always: “follow the commandments.” We are not judged by our Faith, but what we do with it.

To deny that sin is not an impediment to salvation is to do the devil’s work. Afterall, what does the Devil want us to do: turn from God, which is the very definition of sin.

 

[TheWhoFreak]

let’s go back into the Bible where God promises us the assurance and the seal of salvation, not me. first of all Jesus came to save sinners, we all agree on that i am sure. jn 3:16 tells us that all who believe will have eternal life.

so to be sure of salvation one must know he or she is saved would you not think?

i am sure of my salvation, i know that i am. this is not boasting by no means, just confident that what God has started in me He will finish.

are you sure?

of course not! we would not be having this different view of God’s word if you were sure.

God bless.

I fail to see where the answer to my question is in here. Could you actually answer my question instead of avoiding it please? Here it is again:

Jerry, I want to ask you a question. Let’s go back to my previous example about the Christian who was saved and then did all that bad stuff. Let’s say he lived a Spirit-filled life for 30 years before doing those things. Don’t say that it is impossible for that to happen, this is a theoretical scenario. You would say that he was never saved to begin with. My problem is that he would have prayed to recieve Christ when he became a Christian right? So if he was never saved to begin with, did God just ignore his prayer? Methinks not, as evidenced by the Spirit-filled life. What say you Jerry?

 

[Jerry_Marino]

i feel for you guys who don’t understand, so many questions to answer in such little space. first of all, yes i said i don’t deserve salvation because i am sinner who has broken God’s law. now, Jesus came down from heaven to take our place on the cross that we so rightfully deserve but God with His bountiful grace i am granted eternal life.

you call yourself roman catholic read the book of romans here is a taste to my comment above: 23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

the question about justification?

again in the book of romans10
For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.

the sanctification is a process that we all work out with the help of the Holy Spirit.

also the question of a Christian who is living in sin?

if he is a true Christian is the real question but paul addresses this in 1 corinthian 5, i will put one verse but please read the whole chapter: 5
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

of course read 2 corinthians for the follow up; a true believer will come back: prodigal son. if not then he was never part of us to begin with, he would be a weed planted in the church; an apostate.

what’s the difference between saul & david?

God bless.

 

[Lampo]

again in the book of romans10
For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.

How does that jive with 1 Cor. 10:12 - “Let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed, lest he fall.”?

 

[Jerry_Marino]

How does that jive with 1 Cor. 10:12 - “Let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed, lest he fall.”?

normally i would not respond but the likes of you who leave out vital information prompt me to post the very next verse:13 No trial has come to you but what is human. God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength; but with the trial he will also provide a way out, so that you may be able to bear it.

you see my friend you misread my stance for it is not in myself that my assurance is base but in God who saves me.

look at what your catholic bishops state on these verses.
Take care not to fall: the point of the whole comparison with Israel is to caution against overconfidence, a sense of complete security (1 Cor 10:12). This warning is immediately balanced by a reassurance, based, however, on God (1 Cor 10:13).

God bless.