OSAS

[Lampo]

normally i would not respond but the likes of you who leave out vital information prompt me to post the very next verse:13 No trial has come to you but what is human. God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength; but with the trial he will also provide a way out, so that you may be able to bear it.

That’s right, one must cooperate with God’s grace in order to be saved. It’s not a one time deal. You can jump out of His hand if you so desire.

you see my friend you misread my stance for it is not in myself that my assurance is base but in God who saves me.

Sure, as long as you persevere, run the race to the end and work out your salvation in fear and trembling. (Phil. 2:12) Don’t forget, you could be disqualified just like Saint Paul knew that he could be.(1 Cor. 9:27) He never judged himself saved either. (1 Cor.4:3-4)

look at what your catholic bishops state on these verses.
Take care not to fall: the point of the whole comparison with Israel is to caution against overconfidence, a sense of complete security (1 Cor 10:12). This warning is immediately balanced by a reassurance, based, however, on God (1 Cor 10:13).
God bless.

Amen! As a devout Catholic, I agree our Bishops 100%

Let me ask you a question. What separates us from God?

 

[TheWhoFreak]

normally i would not respond but the likes of you who leave out vital information prompt me to post the very next verse:13 No trial has come to you but what is human. God is faithful and will not let you be tried beyond your strength; but with the trial he will also provide a way out, so that you may be able to bear it.

you see my friend you misread my stance for it is not in myself that my assurance is base but in God who saves me.

look at what your catholic bishops state on these verses.
Take care not to fall: the point of the whole comparison with Israel is to caution against overconfidence, a sense of complete security (1 Cor 10:12). This warning is immediately balanced by a reassurance, based, however, on God (1 Cor 10:13).

God bless.

Jerry, are you ignoring me because you somehow don’t see the lurid blue text I post in (not likely IMHO), or is it because you don’t have an answer to my question that jives with your theology. Personally I think it’s the second one.

 

[CentralFLJames]

After 27 pages of beating my head against a stone wall here and the constant ignoring of the scripture verses that contradict OSAS I am unsubscribing folks. Some people are just committed to believing what hey want to believe no matter what the facts and contradictions are.

Chow…

James

 

[Jerry_Marino]

:banghead:

i love you james put ice on it!

 

[Cbailey2]

After 27 pages of beating my head against a stone wall here and the constant ignoring of the scripture verses that contradict OSAS I am unsubscribing folks. Some people are just committed to believing what hey want to believe no matter what the facts and contradictions are.

Chow…

James

I’ve read all 27 pages and I’ve never been prouder to be catholic. Thanks everyone for good thoughts,good posts, and good apologetics.

 

[SteveGC]

Jerry Marino:

also the question of a Christian who is living in sin?

if he is a true Christian is the real question but paul addresses this in 1 corinthian 5, i will put one verse but please read the whole chapter: 5
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

of course read 2 corinthians for the follow up; a true believer will come back: prodigal son. if not then he was never part of us to begin with, he would be a weed planted in the church; an apostate.

Jerry,

The important distinction here is not that YOU claim another person to have “never been part of us to begin with”. Rather, the issue is…what THAT OTHER PERSON thought about THEMSELVES when they made a profession of faith in Christ. Do you see the distinction? You may say that someone else never was a true believer, but IN THEIR MIND, they WERE!

THEREFORE,

THAT person, who believes he is saved, and you say he never was because he fell away…where is the 100% assurance for him? He thinks he has it, you say he doesn’t. He made the same profession as you…where’s the OSAS in that?

 

[SteveGC]

Jerry, I’m reposting a previous post that you did not get around to responding to yet. Would love to hear your comments…

---

Jerry,

1. what do you make of people who aren’t as absolute in their confidence of their eternal destiny as you are? Is their lack of 100% confidence a sign to you that they do not believe, nor follow, Christ? If so, I would argue that the level of one’s confidence in their eternal destiny is in no way proportionate to, or even a reflection of, their faith and discipleship in Christ. If I’m driving cross-country somewhere, and I’m not 100% certain if I will make it there in one piece, do I stop driving? Do I stop following the road I’m on that leads me there? Just because I don’t know the outcome, it has no bearing on my belief that the road will lead me there if I keep driving. I am just as faithful to the driving as another driver who’s convinced himself 100% that he WILL make it to his destination. I’m wondering why you think confidence is a valid measure of faith? Is not faith more appropriately described as belief and acceptance without the possession of full knowledge of any outcome? And wouldn’t you agree that Christians are called to be faithful throughout their entire lives? If you think about it, what use is there for lifelong faith, if one is already 100% assured in their mind of their fate? All I’m saying is that the essence of “faith” is perpetual belief and discipleship, not an instantaneous or one-time proclamation of salvation.
2. Catholics actually ARE confident in their salvation. We have a reasonable and moral assurance of it, which is to say that we know our eternal destiny is with God so long as we truly follow Christ until the end of our lives. Using my analogy, we know that if we keep driving, following the rules of the road, stay within the lines, we will eventually make it home. Knowing that about us, why would it be still so important for you to preach the necessity of absolute, here-and-now, assurance?
3. In order to be assured like you are, would you say it’s most important to be a true believer in Jesus, or a true follower of Jesus? If it’s both, or just “follower”, why do you cite only Jn 3:16, which does not specifically talk about following?

 

[rinnie]

I believe that we did all we could do to show why Jerry could not possibly be correct on his view according to scripture. I agree as the one post commented it makes me proud to be Catholic, and I believe as Catholics we have did all we could do to help Jerry to understand.

Now the rest is up to God. I pray Jerry can see how he could not possibly answer anyones questions, that should show him things in itself. We did our best. But as the old saying goes you can;t keep beating a dead horse. Jerry will believe what he wants to believe. We will believe what the Church teaches. Have a great day.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

first of all steve i haven’t said who is or isn’t saved on here. my view is that we can be sure of our salvation not because of what we do in keeping it cause we did not do anything to earn salvation to begin with.

as for your question of someone not absolutely sure, i’d say to them simply to not rely on themselves and stand on the promises of God.

well if you as a catholic are sure of your salvation then why argue to the point that one can lose their salvation?

steve as far as the verses i’ve cited it is not only John 3:16. i agree with you on the following of Jesus cause can’t say he or she is a Christian and live like the devil though you and others would like to imply that i have said that and that would be far from the truth. but to be a follower of Christ would not imply that one has to certain things in order to be saved. a true believer would have fruit of the Spirit as evidence of his or her conversion and the fruit is the result of one’s salvation not in trying to earn salvation. you know by reading scripture that is by grace so there is no need for works.

rinnie thank you for the prayers and i’ve answered all question that i find fit to answer some question are just not worthy to pry into.

**John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. **

you all say that we must follow the commandments; which commandments?

there is are two commandments my friends that are required of us:
1 John 3:23 And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as he commanded us. 24 Those who keep his commandments remain in him, and he in them, and the way we know that he remains in us is from the Spirit that he gave us.

when did He give us the His Spirit?
Ephisians 1:13 In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy Spirit, 14 which is the first installment 8 of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.

don’t argue with me, i am just putting down God’s word. if you put your faith in Him, repenting of your sins, trusting in Him for you salvation, you will be saved.

God bless.

 

[Cbailey2]

don’t argue with me, i am just putting down God’s word.

That’s not quite true. You are just putting down part of God’s word. You took something that was whole, cut out sections of it, and glued them together in a pattern to express the meaning you want them to express. We all do it - it’s a necessary part of scholarship: taking evidence from primary sources and placing them in the context of our own argument.

The difference is that Catholics are honest about the reality of biblical interpretation: we do not pretend that scripture speaks directly to us, unaltered by our language, our culture, our intelligence, our bias, or opinions. If that were true, you could place 1,000 Christians in isolated rooms with a bible and they’d all come out with the same meaning (due the gifts of the Spirit). But 2,000 years of Church history has proved this is not true. Paul had to deal with people who tried to interpret their own version of Christianity back then (as evidenced in his letters) and the problem continues to this day. What you are taught - the sermons you hear, the friends you study scripture with, the family that raised you, etc. - has a dramatic impact on how you will read God’s holy word. We are honest about that influence and we call it Tradition. You are not, and so two protestants can disagree vehemently with each other on an essential matter of faith (free will versus unconditional election), and both claim that the Holy Spirit inspired you.

Stating that “i am just putting down God’s word” is like a kidnapper in court arguing that the ransom note he assembled by cutting letters out of magazines and newspapers was written by the press. Sure, the press wrote the letters and words that make up his ransom note, but those words had a different meaning and context before he set upon rearranging them.

This is not just God’s word: this is your interpretation. How do you know your interpretation is right? What distinguishes your argument from this: newsweek.com/id/172653 (“The Biblical Case for Gay Marriage”)

 

[teak421]

i feel for you guys who don’t understand, so many questions to answer in such little space. first of all, yes i said i don’t deserve salvation because i am sinner who has broken God’s law. now, Jesus came down from heaven to take our place on the cross that we so rightfully deserve but God with His bountiful grace i am granted eternal life.

you call yourself roman catholic read the book of romans here is a taste to my comment above: 23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

the question about justification?

again in the book of romans10
For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved.

the sanctification is a process that we all work out with the help of the Holy Spirit.

also the question of a Christian who is living in sin?

if he is a true Christian is the real question but paul addresses this in 1 corinthian 5, i will put one verse but please read the whole chapter: 5
you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.

of course read 2 corinthians for the follow up; a true believer will come back: prodigal son. if not then he was never part of us to begin with, he would be a weed planted in the church; an apostate.

what’s the difference between saul & david?

God bless.

James 2:24 says the following:

24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

With that said, it is ONLY through the Merit of Christ’s Passion that our faith and works mean anything.

• Michael

 

[teak421]

don’t argue with me, i am just putting down God’s word. if you put your faith in Him, repenting of your sins, trusting in Him for you salvation, you will be saved.

So, if a person does all the above (trusts, repenting, etc) for 10 or 15 years and then cheats on his wife repeatedly, is a drunkard, will that person “lose” his salvation?

• Michael

 

[rinnie]

Okay Jerry then answer one simple question How can you be in a state of sin and a state of grace at the same time? And if you are in a state of sin in order to receive grace you must be given absolution and forgiveness for those sins.

Now in order to be forgiven you must confess your sins, to a Priest who has been given power from up above to forgive them. Are you saying Jerry that you have the power to forgive the sins of others by the power of the Holy Spiriit?

If so when and where is that written in the bible. I have only seen Jesus give that power to the APostles and them pass it down thru Apostolic succession. SO tell me Jerry how else am I forgiven? And Please do not tell me I can go to God on my own because then you are saying I have the power to give myself absolution. God did not set it up that way. Why did he give the apostles the power to forgive sin if he did not want us to go to them?

 

[rinnie]

Any Catholic will tell you that they believe what Jesus said. He left us the CHurch, not a book, not ourself. He left us a Church which is where you will find Christ. And his Apostles he left to carry on his work. A priest has all the Power on heaven and earth given to him by Christ. He does nothing on his own, and has given up his soul to Christ to work through him to do his work.

You Jerry do not have the power to forgive my sins or your sins. Only God can and he left that power to his successors. So in order to be saved we confess our sins, or we do not sin. That is the only way we can be sure we are saved. And we must be truly sorry for that sin and repent, if not God knows.

 

[SteveGC]

first of all steve i haven’t said who is or isn’t saved on here.

I never said you did that. What I did do was use a hypothetical scenario of a person who once proclaimed belief in Christ, really and truly believed he was saved at that instant in time…this happens all over the “faith-alone” world out there, Jerry…every day. It just happened as I was writing this…and again now as you’re reading it. All of them…ALL of them, Jerry, have made this proclamation of faith with the understanding and belief that the moment they made this profession, they were eternally saved…no matter what. What is undeniable, however, is that many of them will not persevere…many will lose that conviction they once had during that one-time heart-felt proclamation…many will then lose the capacity to bear the fruit of the Spirit. To you, your position is that their heart-felt profession was therefore a sham…not valid. But I GUARANTEE YOU, Jerry…they ALL will disagree with you…they ALL would tell you that when they made that proclamation of faith to our Lord, that they TRULY meant it…with all they could muster…that they felt the movement of the Spirit calling them, and then coming to them. And now, as they fail to bear fruit later in life…YOU will tell us that that wasn’t enough…that somehow it wasn’t valid for them in the first place. And I ask you…if that’s the case…then how can ANYONE be 100% sure of their salvation when in their heart, they themselves KNOW that they meant it when they said it??

 

[SteveGC]

my view is that we can be sure of our salvation not because of what we do in keeping it cause we did not do anything to earn salvation to begin with.

A gift is not MORE of a free gift to one who does nothing to keep it…nor is it any LESSER of a free gift to one who cooperates with that gift in order to keep it. It’s always a free, unmerited gift no matter what, Jerry. Your problem is that you think the gift is eternal life - declared for you right here and now. And you’re wrong. The gift is not that. The gift is an open gate to heaven, Jerry. It was once closed to us Gentiles. It’s open now, through the blood sacrifice of our Lord. But if we just stand here and look at that nice open gate…we’ll never walk through it…not even if we profess a belief that that gate is now open. We gotta WALK through it, Jer.
Jerry Marino:

as for your question of someone not absolutely sure, i’d say to them simply to not rely on themselves and stand on the promises of God.

How does me not having 100% assurance of my eternal destiny in any way effect my reliance on God?? Jerry, I rely on God BECAUSE I’m not absolutely sure…that’s why I HAVE to rely on Him! Why do YOU rely on Him, Jerry? To me, you only relied on Him once in your life…and to you, this was enough for Him to allow you in to heaven for eternity…there’s no need for you to rely on Him for anything else now, is there? It’s done for you. Why do you continue to rely on something that has already been officially declared as “done” for you?
Jerry Marino:

well if you as a catholic are sure of your salvation then why argue to the point that one can lose their salvation?

Because I am not ABSOLUTELY sure…I am not judging myself. I cannot tell you that in 10 years, things will progress poorly in my life, Satan will take an upperhand of some perhaps dire circumstance confronting me, tempt me in deceitful ways, and I will slowly but surely fall out of grace and right relationship with God as I give in to one temptation after another…never confessing or reconciling myself to Him. I don’t believe that this will happen, but I am not able to see my future circumstances. It’s not that I don’t trust fully in God to help me…but Satan works in slow, methodical, mischievous ways…and the events of my life may unfold in various complicated and tragic ways, and my actions may ultimately lead me down a darker path. I have a “reasonable, moral” assurance that IF I stay obedient to Christ, follow His Church which He created for me (and all of us), that I WILL (not already HAVE BEEN, but i WILL) be judged worthy by Christ to enter into eternal life in heaven.

And Jerry, circumstances in your life could drastically change too. These events could have critical ramifications on your life in faith, in your full trust in God. You may not think that you could ever possibly fall away, and subsequently fail to produce good fruit…but it’s a very real possibility. I pray it will not happen to you, but if it does, I would pray that you will see that God requires the continuous ascent of our will, our on-going cooperation with His grace, in order to stay in the relationship with Him that He desires. It takes work on our part, lifelong work…fueled and empowered by His Grace. You ask anyone who has fallen away and come back to Christ, Jerry. You ask anyone if they felt like they were saved before they fell. They will tell you YES. You ask them if they produced good fruit when they were fallen…they will say NO. You ask them if they always knew that they’d return like the prodigal son…so many of them will tell you NO. Then ask THOSE people if they believe in OSAS.

 

[SteveGC]

don’t argue with me, i am just putting down God’s word.

CBailey had the best response to this comment, Jerry. Re-read it. It’s the same type of thing you’ve heard me say before on these forums. Everyone is an interpreter of Scripture, Jerry…whether they think it or not. Everyone comes to scripture with a framework established by others in their lives. This framework provides their interpretive lens. The Catholic lens is The Church Christ established for this purpose, and other purposes. The non-Catholic lens is their faith community, their friends, family, commentators, bible study groups, pastors at this denomination, another at that denomination, etc. etc. We all have the lens…which one is the purest and provides for the full focus of God’s Word? That’s the question we must ask.

The ransom note analogy CBailey gave was a perfect example of how you choose to interpret scripture for us, putting biblical verses in specific sequence to support your beliefs. You also paste commentary with most of your scripture quotes (which you rarely, if ever, give credit to)…this is another form of interpretation.
Jerry Marino:

if you put your faith in Him, repenting of your sins, trusting in Him for you salvation, you will be saved.

Jerry, if I didn’t “know” you better, I’d call you a Catholic with this statement. You even used progressive tense (repentING, trustING)…and future tense too (WILL BE saved). We love it. You’re thinking as we do now. It’s all on-going, never-ending, and salvation is determined in the future…not now. Maybe the truth is rubbing off on you?

 

[paul_c]

Jerry,
what type of OSAS believer are you?

Are you a “Free Grace Believer”, who believes that once you have verballized you rfaith in Jesus, you are saved forever, regardless of what you do afterwards.

Or are you more of a “Lordship Theology believer,”, who recognizes the key weakness of the Free Grace Believer: that it requires God to essentially call a sinner righteous and that sin is irrelevant. These Lordship Theology believers instead claim that a sinner never was saved to begin with and that his confession was a false one.

Of course, it is clear that the Lordship theology believer can’t really believe in OSAS because he won’t know whether he was truly saved until he dies.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

one can’t do anything in keeping a gift only receive it. and once receiving the gift the Holy Spirit begins to work within the believer. you guys are killing me softly with your words.

Jesus said, "28 Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for your selves. For my yoke is easy, and my burden light."

the burden that has been placed on most of you, come to the truth and you shall be free!

God bless.

 

[fhansen]

one can’t do anything in keeping a gift only receive it. and once receiving the gift the Holy Spirit begins to work within the believer. you guys are killing me softly with your words.

Jesus said, "28 Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for your selves. For my yoke is easy, and my burden light."

the burden that has been placed on most of you, come to the truth and you shall be free!

God bless.

Jesus didn’t say we’d be free from all burden- He just said His burden was light.