L
LtTony
Guest
What does the Old Testament state regarding the divinity of the messiah?
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
B
Bezant
Guest
The New Testament does, but the Old Testament does not talk of the messiah being divine.
L
LtTony
Guest
If that is correct, then what is the Catholic christian response to those that dismiss the divinity of Christ (and the Trinity) as unscriptural (from an OT perspective) ?
J
jojo96
Guest
The OT doesn’t reveal the divinity of the Massiah, but there are multiple places where God appears in the form of a man or an angel, usually called the "Angel of the Lord.
L
LtTony
Guest
Examples?
J
jojo96
Guest
catholicsforisrael.com/content/view/50/95/1/3/lang,en/
I only read the beginning and some parts of this seem a little fishy to me, but other parts make sense.
I only read the beginning and some parts of this seem a little fishy to me, but other parts make sense.
B
Bezant
Guest
You would have to explain how and why the New Testament revelation fulfills the Old Testament revelation.If that is correct, then what is the Catholic christian response to those that dismiss the divinity of Christ (and the Trinity) as unscriptural (from an OT perspective) ?
A
A_G
Guest
The following link may help.What does the Old Testament state regarding the divinity of the messiah?
catholicbible101.com/otpropheciesofjesus.htm
D
Dave_Noonan
Guest
Daniel 7 is a good place to start, as is Isa. 9:6.What does the Old Testament state regarding the divinity of the messiah?
If you’re interested in a good book on the topic I’d recommend The Jewish Gospels by Daniel Boyarin.
meltzerboy
New member
The Torah portion of the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), the most sacred first five books of Moses, hardly even mentions the Messiah. Only the Prophets section hints at a Messiah, as well as the Oral Law. Judaism has never regarded the Messiah as divine, even in the theory of two Messiahs. Some Jews don’t even believe in a personal Messiah, but rather a Messianic Age; while others believe in neither.What does the Old Testament state regarding the divinity of the messiah?
D
Dave_Noonan
Guest
Again, I would suggest the book, The Jewish Gospels. Boyarin would most vigorously disagree with your statement.Judaism has never regarded the Messiah as divine, even in the theory of two Messiahs.
meltzerboy
New member
Thanks, Dave; I’ll check out the book. It should be noted, however, that Boyarin, for all his scholarly credentials and self-identification as an Orthodox Jew, is quite a controversial figure with regard to his virulent anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian stance at UC Berkeley, in which he has compared the Israeli government to the Nazis; as well as his evaluation of the Jewish psyche as basically passive, which he states is responsible for Freud’s compensatory use of the Oedipus complex in his psychoanalytic theory.Again, I would suggest the book, The Jewish Gospels. Boyarin would most vigorously disagree with your statement.
D
Dave_Noonan
Guest
I’m not sure what a pro-Palestinian stance has to do with this particular question. He’s considered one of the top four or five Talmud scholars in the world, plus understands Christianity and its historical context better than most Christians do.Thanks, Dave; I’ll check out the book. It should be noted, however, that Boyarin, for all his scholarly credentials and self-identification as an Orthodox Jew, is quite a controversial figure with regard to his virulent anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian stance at UC Berkeley, in which he has compared the Israeli government to the Nazis, and his evaluation of the Jewish psyche as basically passive, which he states is responsible for Freud’s compensatory use of the Oedipus complex in his psychoanalytic theory.
meltzerboy
New member
You’re right; they’re not necessarily related. However, Boyarin’s evaluation of the Jewish psyche as well as his comparison of Israeli leaders to Nazis does give us somewhat of a glimpse regarding how his mind works.I’m not sure what a pro-Palestinian stance has to do with this particular question. He’s considered one of the top four or five Talmud scholars in the world, plus understands Christianity and its historical context better than most Christians do.
F
fred_conty
Guest
This was quoted in another post.What does the Old Testament state regarding the divinity of the messiah?
1 Chronicles, chapter 17
11: When your days are fulfilled to go to be with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, one of your own sons, and I will establish his kingdom.
12: He shall build a house for me, and I will establish his throne for ever.
13: I will be his Father, and he shall be my Son; I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from him who was before you,
14: but I will confirm him in my house and in my kingdom for ever and his throne shall be established for ever.
15: In accordance with all these words, and in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David.
C
chosen_people
Guest
So would any rabbi.Maimonides (the Rambam) discusses in Hilcot Tshuva the fourteen ways a Jew may lose his share in the world to come. One of the ways stated is tn the denying of the coming of the Messiah.Again, I would suggest the book, The Jewish Gospels. Boyarin would most vigorously disagree with your statement.
The Messiah ben David is by definition that man who fulfills all six of the criterion in the Jewish scriptures. From a Jewish perspective what makes Christian claims that Jesus was the Messiah ben David so remarkable, is that he did not fulfill a single one of the six criterion.
On the other hand,there is no concept in Judaism that faith in the Messiah ben David leads to personal salvation. There is not a single verse in the Torah or prophets that states or implies that belief in the Messiah ben David is required for or related to personal salvation. The salvation program for Jews is to love God, fear God and keep His commandments.
C
chosen_people
Guest
Well despite the mediocre english translation, it is a discussion of David’s rejected hope to be the one to build the Temple. God is saying to David that Israel has not yet achieved the absolute security and tranquility that are prerequisites to the building of the Temple (see Deuteronomy 12:10-11) and that era would first arrive with Solomon. The person before was Saul and the person after (the son who will build the Temple) is Solomon. David is no fool. He saw how easily Saul lost his throne and his life and he wants assurances from God as to his dynasty.This was quoted in another post.
1 Chronicles, chapter 17
11: When your days are fulfilled to go to be with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, one of your own sons, and I will establish his kingdom.
12: He shall build a house for me, and I will establish his throne for ever.
13: I will be his Father, and he shall be my Son; I will not take my steadfast love from him, as I took it from him who was before you,
14: but I will confirm him in my house and in my kingdom for ever and his throne shall be established for ever.
15: In accordance with all these words, and in accordance with all this vision, Nathan spoke to David.
Notice how the Christian translator writes “son” with a capital “S”, thus turning Solomon into the Christian messiah. This use of capitals and changed punctuation is quite common in Christian bibles to adopt the text to Christian beliefs.
F
fred_conty
Guest
You have a good point. Never thought of it that way but sounds good.Well despite the mediocre english translation, it is a discussion of David’s rejected hope to be the one to build the Temple. God is saying to David that Israel has not yet achieved the absolute security and tranquility that are prerequisites to the building of the Temple (see Deuteronomy 12:10-11) and that era would first arrive with Solomon. The person before was Saul and the person after (the son who will build the Temple) is Solomon. David is no fool. He saw how easily Saul lost his throne and his life and he wants assurances from God as to his dynasty.
Notice how the Christian translator writes “son” with a capital “S”, thus turning Solomon into the Christian messiah. This use of capitals and changed punctuation is quite common in Christian bibles to adopt the text to Christian beliefs.
However there is one detail that does bother me.
When it says “establish his throne forever”, and “throne forever”.
That would seem to imply a divine conotation.
And christians(most) believe in his everlasting throne of kingship.
Which is a pointer to something to come, namely Jesus’ kingdom or kingship.
We would see things in the old as pointing to the new.
And thanks for your inlightenment.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.