OT Canon Debate- Michuta vs. White

[FrancisDeSales]

Anybody go to, listen to, or hear anything about the Michuta/White debate on the OT canon? I read some stuff on White’s website, but of course he praised himself and patted himself on the back for a job well done as usual. I was looking for a more objective review of the debate. Thanks!

 

[beng]

wait for Steve Ray, Dave Armstrong for an update. Check their blogs.

 

[JasonTE]

FrancisDeSales:

Anybody go to, listen to, or hear anything about the Michuta/White debate on the OT canon? I read some stuff on White’s website, but of course he praised himself and patted himself on the back for a job well done as usual. I was looking for a more objective review of the debate. Thanks!

No, he didn’t “praise himself and pat himself on the back for a job well done”. It’s understandable that he would think that his position in the debate is the correct position, and that he would therefore probably think that he had won the debate. Gary Michuta probably thinks that he won the debate. If Gary Michuta doesn’t say that he lost the debate, will you conclude that he “praised himself and patted himself on the back for a job well done”?

James White said the following about how well Gary Michuta did:

“Mr. Michuta was very well prepared and had obviously done his homework.” (aomin.org )

Yes, he goes on to criticize Michuta on some points, as would be expected, but he also acknowledges that he didn’t understand some of Michuta’s comments and that he failed to ask something in cross-examination that he should have asked. I don’t think that “praised himself and patted himself on the back for a job well done as usual” is a reasonable or charitable description of what he wrote. For all of the Roman Catholic complaints we hear about how allegedly “hateful” James White is, it seems that many Catholics don’t make much of an effort to be charitable themselves.

If you want to read an evaluation of the debate from a non-Evangelical perspective, the following thread at the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry web site has a report from a Roman Catholic who was there:

new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=107&topic_id=144716&mesg_id=144716&page=3

Jason Engwer
members.aol.com/jasonte
New Testament Research Ministries
ntrmin.org

 

[PhilVaz]

Sounds like Michuta did well. I have some of his earlier tapes, he was a little disorganized in his speaking, but according to White seems to have prepared himself well for this debate.

White is running out of opponents and topics. He’ll have to debate eschatology next. A double debate with Dave Hunt on Calvinism and Dispensationalism is one idea. How about White tag team with Carl Olson and debate Thomas Ice and Tim LaHaye on who will be Left Behind?

Phil P

 

[beng]

PhilVaz:

Sounds like Michuta did well. I have some of his earlier tapes, he was a little disorganized in his speaking, but according to White seems to have prepared himself well for this debate.

White is running out of opponents and topics. He’ll have to debate eschatology next. A double debate with Dave Hunt on Calvinism and Dispensationalism is one idea. How about White tag team with Carl Olson and debate Thomas Ice and Tim LaHaye on who will be Left Behind?

Phil P

Impossible. White doesn’t share glory and conquest with nobody

 

[FrancisDeSales]

I don’t think that “praised himself and patted himself on the back for a job well done as usual” is a reasonable or charitable description of what he wrote.

I’m sorry if I offended you in any way, Jason. I have reread Mr. White’s statements, and I admit he was trying to be as objective as possible.

For all of the Roman Catholic complaints we hear about how allegedly “hateful” James White is, it seems that many Catholics don’t make much of an effort to be charitable themselves.

But honestly, I have to say that Mr. White is very “hateful.” I know that he loves Christ, and firmly believes in his version of the gospel. I also believe that he is honestly trying his best to present himself in a scholarly manner. But there have been numerous conversations of his that I’ve read online where he outright insults his opponents, usually because he feels that his opponents are unworthy scholars.

And I’m not some anti-Protestant, either. First, my girlfriend is Protestant, we get along just fine :bounce:. Second, a lot of my friends in college are Protestant, and I love them as my brothers and sisters. I’ve read a lot of Protestants scholars who I can say are truly not anti-Catholic and “hateful”, and I’ll have to say that James White is not one of them.

 

[FrancisDeSales]

Oops… last post kinda got messed up… here’s a correction if you need it.

I don’t think that “praised himself and patted himself on the back for a job well done as usual” is a reasonable or charitable description of what he wrote.

I’m sorry if I offended you in any way, Jason. I have reread Mr. White’s statements, and I admit he was trying to be as objective as possible.

For all of the Roman Catholic complaints we hear about how allegedly “hateful” James White is, it seems that many Catholics don’t make much of an effort to be charitable themselves.

But honestly, I have to say that Mr. White is very “hateful.” I know that he loves Christ, and firmly believes in his version of the gospel. I also believe that he is honestly trying his best to present himself in a scholarly manner. But there have been numerous conversations of his that I’ve read online where he outright insults his opponents, usually because he feels that his opponents are unworthy scholars.

And I’m not some anti-Protestant, either. First, my girlfriend is Protestant, we get along just fine :bounce:. Second, a lot of my friends in college are Protestant, and I love them as my brothers and sisters. I’ve read a lot of Protestants scholars who I can say are truly not anti-Catholic and “hateful”, and I’ll have to say that James White is not one of them.

 

[PhilVaz]

<< But honestly, I have to say that Mr. White is very “hateful.” >>

Well, no more hateful than us Catholic apologists. He might come across that way in his writings sometimes (who hasn’t online?). I’ve met him, seemed nice to me. I do find it strange he wouldn’t eat lunch with Steve Ray. I would gladly sit down with James White, Jason Engwer, and Eric Svendsen at Dennys at 2 am. Now where to meet, that’s the question. And have Steve Ray, Akin, Keating, as backups. What a lunch that would be. I’ll have to bring a recorder.

Phil P

 

[JasonTE]

beng:

Impossible. White doesn’t share glory and conquest with nobody

Actually, he partnered with Rob Zins, against Robert Sungenis and Scott Butler, in a debate on the papacy at Boston College in 1995. And some of his books have a co-author.

Jason Engwer
members.aol.com/jasonte
New Testament Research Ministries
ntrmin.org

 

[beng]

JasonTE:

Actually, he partnered with Rob Zins, against Robert Sungenis and Scott Butler, in a debate on the papacy at Boston College in 1995. And some of his books have a co-author.

Jason Engwer
members.aol.com/jasonte
New Testament Research Ministries
ntrmin.org

Ahh, that’s a new name.

I thought the “Trinity” was White + Svendsen + King (David T.)

 

[beng]

<< But honestly, I have to say that Mr. White is very “hateful.” >>

Well, no more hateful than us Catholic apologists. He might come across that way in his writings sometimes (who hasn’t online?). I’ve met him, seemed nice to me. I do find it strange he wouldn’t eat lunch with Steve Ray. I would gladly sit down with James White, Jason Engwer, and Eric Svendsen at Dennys at 2 am. Now where to meet, that’s the question. And have Steve Ray, Akin, Keating, as backups. What a lunch that would be. I’ll have to bring a recorder.

Phil P

I think for svendsen you need to bring one of the fellowship of the hou member: David Palm, Sungenis, Matatics, Pacheco.

Yeah, any of them should put Svendsen into submission

 

[Therese_Martin]

General reminder: Referring to someone as “hateful” is an ad hominem argument and is not in keeping with forum guidelines that prohibit personal attacks:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2

Argue with Mr. White’s positions, but please refrain from attempting to read his soul. Thanks for your cooperation!

 

[Cephas]

Hey Francis,

I was at the debate on Thursday in Long Island.

I really think that Mr Michuta could have done a better job. While he might have done his homework, he did not seem prepared for Mr. White and his tactics (even some good questions too, by James). He actually didnt present a strong, positive case for the Deuterocanonicals. I was very saddened.

But , like beng said " wait for Steve Ray’s comments"

He (Steve) was there at the debate

Excellent man he is, very humble, energetic and prayerful.

Cephas

 

[SteveKRay]

beng:

wait for Steve Ray, Dave Armstrong for an update. Check their blogs.

There is a Debate website for Gary Michuta on my website at Gary’s Page. Keep your eye on it for reviews and comments along with documentation by Gary.

 

[PhilVaz]

Hey Steve, good to see you. Looking forward to Gary Michuta’s book on this subject as well.

Phil P

 

[FrancisDeSales]

Oops… sorry about the last ad hominem. Won’t happen again.

For all of the Roman Catholic complaints we hear about how allegedly “hateful” James White is, it seems that many Catholics don’t make much of an effort to be charitable themselves.

But Jason, where exactly in my first post do I say that Mr. White is “hateful”? Where do I even begin to imply or bring up the issue of hate? You yourself brought that up before I even began to mention it.

 

[Therese_Martin]

Unless someone has a comment on the topic of the Old Testament debate between Gary Michuta and James White, let’s begin to wind up this conversation thread, folks. Back-and-forths over who said James White was “hateful” and James White’s personality, in general, are off-topic. Thank you!

 

[beng]

Michuta’s own words about the debate

 

[Leemi]

I am assuming that you could have done better? I have not come across one person that feels that way about Mr. Michuta and his debate and I was there. I was proud to have him face Mr. White with the truth and to do it in a charitable way. Anyone that knows Mr. Michuta knows that he is a kind, loving, incredibly intelligent man that has a passion for God that is evidenced in his life. I have even heard that he answers all emails sent to him personally.

I think that your comments lack evidences and I would like to see some support for your thoughts.

Hey Francis,

I was at the debate on Thursday in Long Island.

I really think that Mr Michuta could have done a better job. While he might have done his homework, he did not seem prepared for Mr. White and his tactics (even some good questions too, by James). He actually didnt present a strong, positive case for the Deuterocanonicals. I was very saddened.

But , like beng said " wait for Steve Ray’s comments"

He (Steve) was there at the debate

Excellent man he is, very humble, energetic and prayerful.

Cephas