OT God vs. NT God

[JackD13]

Hello all,

I’ve just recently gotten back into my faith, and being on the starting end of things I want to make sure I have an accurate scriptural, doctrinal, and philosophical perspective on the difficult matters regarding Catholicism.

Throughout this search of difficult matters I have arrived at the common argument regarding the comparison of the Old Testament God to the New Testament God (albeit that these are indeed the same God) that lies along the lines of: How could such a vengeful and wrathful God flip over to one of replete forgiveness and mercy?

While I understand that truthfully there are comparative measures of wrath and mercy in each of the Testaments, I do find some difficulty in understanding why indeed the manner of teaching is so drastically different.

Along those lines of faith being merely founded on the Old Testament:

Why does Jesus denounce such teachings as he does in Mark 5:38-39 (“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on your right cheek, turn the other one to him as well.”) but reference and uphold others such as in Matthew 12:7 referring to Hosea 6:6 “If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.”

While I am sure there is doctrinal and philosophical logic behind these actions, I nevertheless find the manner of teaching seemingly contradictory and confusing.

Thanks so much!

 

[DavidFilmer]

How could such a vengeful and wrathful God

But God in the OT also blessed people (Abraham, Joseph, etc), and averted his wrath when people repented (such as the citizens of Ninevah), and listened to the intercessory prayer of others (such as he did with Abraham regarding Sodom & Gomorrah - Alas, Abraham didn’t negotiate hard enough).

In the OT, we see a very just God. Justice means that the penalty equals the offense. “An eye for an eye” is a statement of pure justice.

Mercy is opposed to justice. Mercy means that the penalty is less than the offense (or possibly that there is no penalty at all). In the New Testament, we see God as merciful.

What happened to bring about this difference? The Sacrifice of Calvary, where Jesus (in human form) atoned for the sins of the whole world. Justice has been satisfied.

 

[KelseyBelsey]

What happened to bring about this difference? The Sacrifice of Calvary, where Jesus (in human form) atoned for the sins of the whole world. Justice has been satisfied.

So, does that mean now that Jesus was sacrificed, God is no longer a just God but is now more of a merciful God?

 

[Hounchell1945]

So, does that mean now that Jesus was sacrificed, God is no longer a just God but is now more of a merciful God?

I think you will find your answers in the area of “progressive Theology”… if you will do some research on that subject you will discover that through out the time God promised to crush the head of the serpent, and when it actually happened thousands of years had passed.

Jesus said, my time is not come… and then… later he said…"my hour is now’…

it seems that there was a time table which God was using and during this time slot he progressively revealed his Truths to the chosen people a phrase at a time…

When mankind was on their own, they created many Gods and Idols… God went to Abram and told him to go out form his people, and take some of his family with him and just wander around and build alters, build fires, burn the fur and innards along with the blood of animals. When the people of the near by area where he was, smelled the fire and went and saw the alter and asked “whats up”… ?? He was told by God to tell them one thing…
And that one message was “there is one God”… God slowly revealed himself to mankind within a progressive manner, sort of like you need to lay some math foundation from your schools from when you learn to add to when you are taught Algebraic numbers.

From the time of Abram to Jesus we went from one God to three Gods in one…

But it took eight thousand years to get that lesson across to the people… who were taught gradually…

Therefore, God may have, used his personality traits differently as mankind progressed…

I say, “May have” as you are entering into what is the difference between theology and philosophy.

God came and found man… man did not go find God… when God approached the many people he did, he gave to them his “truths”… and that is theology… The study of what God has stated…

Philosophy is to take what God has said and try to run it through our senses and see if we
can use our reason and logic, through our intellect and attempt to comprehend what God mean and why…

Often come to that point in our reasoning that many of God’s truths are just far too advanced for our limited abilities to comprehend those kinds of Truths…

It is sort of like a grain of sand attempting to soak up the ocean…

But for me, I like to think of what St. Augustine once wrote about the many mysteries of God. He said. "There are many mysteries of God but since he did not take the time to explain them to us, he must feel that we do not need to know how that works’…

I imagine anyone can form an opinion of anything they think about… but though we have Infallible scriptures we do not have too many infallible abilities to comprehend those truths…

Do not feel bad, you are far from being alone in your “wondering” ’

 

[meltzerboy]

So, does that mean now that Jesus was sacrificed, God is no longer a just God but is now more of a merciful God?

I don’t believe so since that would suggest that the nature of G-d has changed. From the Jewish perspective, one cannot have a merciful G-d without also having a just G-d. These are the two divine attributes of G-d which are reflected in humans, made in the image of G-d. There is always G-d’s Law; however, the implementation of the Law must be done in a merciful way, which really means according to social justice. If you are Christian and believe in the divinity of Jesus, please realize that Jesus did not end justice by substituting it with mercy; rather, He focused on the merciful features implicit in the Law to begin with. The very giving of the Law to the Jews is itself a merciful act of G-d.

 

[JackD13]

What happened to bring about this difference? The Sacrifice of Calvary, where Jesus (in human form) atoned for the sins of the whole world. Justice has been satisfied.

So are you suggesting that God changed from being principally founded on justice to being principally founded on mercy? And you’re also saying that Jesus’ death allocates for that justice sought by God in the Old Testament. I believe I do not quite understand why God’s dying on the cross for our sins necessitates a conversion of divine attitude or perspective. Could you perhaps explain or elaborate?

 

[AnneTeresa]

God is and always has been BOTH just and merciful. In the OT, there were many covenants with the people which God kept creating to help the people stay close to Him (Abraham, Moses, etc). The people kept breaking the covenant, so God would start over with a new covenant. He gave them many many chances because He really wanted to be merciful to them, but the people could not hold up their end of the covenant.

Then in the New Testament, God gave the ultimate covenant–Jesus Christ. Because of Jesus death and resurrection, God’s justice is served. We do not pay for our sins. God is still just but Jesus shows that He is merciful too–that He will do anything to show that mercy to His people.

 

[KelseyBelsey]

But for me, I like to think of what St. Augustine once wrote about the many mysteries of God. He said. "There are many mysteries of God but since he did not take the time to explain them to us, he must feel that we do not need to know how that works’…

Huh. That’s something to think about.
I still don’t fully understand it all, but thank you for your replies.

God is and always has been BOTH just and merciful. In the OT, there were many covenants with the people which God kept creating to help the people stay close to Him (Abraham, Moses, etc). The people kept breaking the covenant, so God would start over with a new covenant. He gave them many many chances because He really wanted to be merciful to them, but the people could not hold up their end of the covenant.

AnneTeresa, reading your post, I want to say I really like the way you describe God and his covenants with his people. You make Him seem…more friendly. More knowable, if you get what I mean.

 

[sw85]

Hello all,

I’ve just recently gotten back into my faith, and being on the starting end of things I want to make sure I have an accurate scriptural, doctrinal, and philosophical perspective on the difficult matters regarding Catholicism.

Throughout this search of difficult matters I have arrived at the common argument regarding the comparison of the Old Testament God to the New Testament God (albeit that these are indeed the same God) that lies along the lines of: How could such a vengeful and wrathful God flip over to one of replete forgiveness and mercy?

While I understand that truthfully there are comparative measures of wrath and mercy in each of the Testaments, I do find some difficulty in understanding why indeed the manner of teaching is so drastically different.

Along those lines of faith being merely founded on the Old Testament:

Why does Jesus denounce such teachings as he does in Mark 5:38-39 (“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on your right cheek, turn the other one to him as well.”) but reference and uphold others such as in Matthew 12:7 referring to Hosea 6:6 “If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.”

While I am sure there is doctrinal and philosophical logic behind these actions, I nevertheless find the manner of teaching seemingly contradictory and confusing.

Thanks so much!

As has been pointed out, it’s not that difficult. God has always been wrathful to unrepentant sinners (including in the NT) and forgiving of the penitent. This isn’t surprising, as I’m given to understand that Yahweh and Jesus are the same divine person.

Anyone who walks away from the NT not seeing God’s justice is simply not reading it properly. Christ’s death on the cross satisfied God’s justice as much as it did His mercy.

Mercy is opposed to justice.

I don’t think this is true. Justice is a good, after all. Two goods can oppose one another in particular circumstances, but not in principle.