OT Judaism

[bsm138]

I read somewhere that the OT Judaism and current Judaism are not the same thing and that the OT Judaism is a pre-cursor to Catholicism.

Whats the deal with this?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I read somewhere that the OT Judaism and current Judaism are not the same thing and that the OT Judaism is a pre-cursor to Catholicism.

Whats the deal with this?

Hopefully, meltzerboy, will respond.

However, from what he has said in the past, I think he will agree to some degree that modern Judaism is different than OT Judaism particularly with regard to the expectancy of a coming Messiah.

 

[Kaninchen]

I read somewhere that the OT Judaism and current Judaism are not the same thing and that the OT Judaism is a pre-cursor to Catholicism.

Whats the deal with this?

Judaism isn’t Christianity minus Jesus and Christianity isn’t Judaism plus Jesus, they’re entirely different religions and always have been.

Many Christians see Christianity as some kind of ‘fulfilment’ of Judaism but that idea comes from an entirely different understanding of some basic concepts.

 

[meltzerboy]

Hopefully, meltzerboy, will respond.

However, from what he has said in the past, I think he will agree to some degree that modern Judaism is different than OT Judaism particularly with regard to the expectancy of a coming Messiah.

Most of modern Judaism (though not all) comes from the Pharisaic tradition of the Hebrew Bible. Of course, there is more emphasis today on rabbinical authority and Talmudic interpretation of the Torah since we no longer have the Temple and its High Priests. However, the essence of Judaism today is, perhaps surprisingly when one considers the rash of relatively modern Jewish movements, quite similar to what it was among the ancient Jews.

It is true that some modern Jews no longer believe in the coming of the Messiah or a Messianic era, but they are a minority even among the Reform and Reconstructionist streams. Maimonides aside, the notion of the Messiah was never really the most basic or most important foundation of the faith.

 

[porthos11]

Most of modern Judaism (though not all) comes from the Pharisaic tradition of the Hebrew Bible. Of course, there is more emphasis today on rabbinical authority and Talmudic interpretation of the Torah since we no longer have the Temple and its High Priests. However, the essence of Judaism today is, perhaps surprisingly when one considers the rash of relatively modern Jewish movements, quite similar to what it was among the ancient Jews.

It is true that some modern Jews no longer believe in the coming of the Messiah or a Messianic era, but they are a minority even among the Reform and Reconstructionist streams. Maimonides aside, the notion of the Messiah was never really the most basic or most important foundation of the faith.

What are your thoughts on the idea that Judaism as it stands now actually originated in the Second Temple period and that it differs somewhat from Israelite Yahwism?

 

[StGerardMajella]

However, the essence of Judaism today is, perhaps surprisingly when one considers the rash of relatively modern Jewish movements, quite similar to what it was among the ancient Jews.

Amen. Excellent response and post.

I read somewhere that the OT Judaism and current Judaism are not the same thing and that the OT Judaism is a pre-cursor to Catholicism. Whats the deal with this?

My two cents – I personally find these kinds of statements a complete insult to the Jewish people. When made by a certain “brand” of Christian (I won’t delve further), they do nothing to advance tolerance, charity, and inter-faith dialogue. In fact, one could argue that these kinds of statements make Christians look quite uncharitable, ignorant, even ugly.

Even without a Temple for the past 2,000 some odd years, the Jewish people continue to pray three (3) times a day, keep the Sabbath and festivals, and maintain their religious identity despite all obstacles to the contrary. If anything, the Judaism of today is stronger and more resilient than in the times of the Old Testament because of what the Jewish people have had to face from an ever increasing hostile world.

The Jewish people are to be commended and applauded, and not demeaned with patently ridiculous statements such as these.

 

[jeannetherese]

Most of modern Judaism (though not all) comes from the Pharisaic tradition of the Hebrew Bible. Of course, there is more emphasis today on rabbinical authority and Talmudic interpretation of the Torah since we no longer have the Temple and its High Priests. .

Thank you for sharing Meltzerboy (and Kaninchen in an earlier post). I have much to learn.
I am curious about the rabinnical authorities and the Levite priesthood. Does that priesthood continue through a line of rabbis in one of the branches of Judaism?

 

[GEddie]

Although Christianity is piggybacked onto the Messianic expectations of 2nd Temple Judaism, it is not the extension of that faith. Modern Judaism is.

A priest once said that the birth of our LORD was like a rock in a stream, from which two streams diverged, one becoming Christian, the other modern Judaism.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Kaninchen]

Christians often seem bemused by the question of the loss of the Temple/Sacrificial system and the ability of Judaism to have carried on. It’s understandable, of course, because the Sacrificial system is such a core theme in Christianity.

The assumption is that, without the Temple-based Sacrificial system, Judaism is somehow invalid, the equivalent of Catholicism without the Mass/Eucharist but is that the real equivalence or is the equivalence more like Islam without the Hajj? If an asteroid hit Mecca, would you expect Muslims throughout the world just give up their religion?

The entire Jewish population of the world hadn’t spent a millennium turning up in Jerusalem every Sabbath morning for a quick sacrifice and then home for lunch, it wasn’t how most Jews experienced religion on a day-to-day, week-by-week basis. That was the province of the meeting house or synagogue - especially for the large number of Jews already living in ‘diaspora’ by the time of the Temple’s destruction.

While it would be ridiculous to deny the psychological shock to Judaism that destruction of the Temple brought, the idea that Judaism as experienced by most Jews suddenly disappeared only to be reinvented by naughty people perversely determined not to be Christians is equally ridiculous.

 

[Kaninchen]

Thank you for sharing Meltzerboy (and Kaninchen in an earlier post). I have much to learn.
I am curious about the rabinnical authorities and the Levite priesthood. Does that priesthood continue through a line of rabbis in one of the branches of Judaism?

Know anybody called Cohen/Kohen (priests)? Or even Levi/Levy (assistants), though after all this time, it’s a bit complicated as you’d expect?

This is the (Hassidic) Chabad site on the subject.

 

[Kaninchen]

What are your thoughts on the idea that Judaism as it stands now actually originated in the Second Temple period and that it differs somewhat from Israelite Yahwism?

Are you suggesting that, between the Bronze Age and Late Antiquity, the religion’s understanding of God, Torah etc had developed somewhat? I wouldn’t be at all surprised.

 

[jeannetherese]

Know anybody called Cohen/Kohen (priests)? Or even Levi/Levy (assistants), though after all this time, it’s a bit complicated as you’d expect?

This is the (Hassidic) Chabad site on the subject.

Thank you for the link; it was fascinating.
jt

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes, Thank You. it was interesting.

Ever since then, many Jews have identified themselves as either Levites (levi’im) or kohanim.

So there is no difference aside from DNA testing.

Aside from that I thought this was interesting question.

Are these tribal affiliations just a matter of folklore and tradition?

Seems to me the facts keep confirming the history.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Christians often seem bemused by the question of the loss of the Temple/Sacrificial system and the ability of Judaism to have carried on. It’s understandable, of course, because the Sacrificial system is such a core theme in Christianity.

Wasn’t it a central theme of Jewish life beginning with Cain and Abel, continuing through Abraham and Isaac and the first Passover in Egypt, and reaching its fulfillment in the Temple in Jerusalem?

I understand that sacrifice was not central to the life of the synagogue, and I’m not sure what would have been practiced during the various exiles and captivities, but one can hardly turn a page in the Hebrew scriptures with a bull or a sheep being slaughtered on an altar or at least some reference being made to such.

And I say that as someone who is TOTALLY okay with all that. I’m just saying it seems like a “core theme” of Judaism from what I read.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Wasn’t it a central theme of Jewish life beginning with Cain and Abel, continuing through Abraham and Isaac and the first Passover in Egypt, and reaching its fulfillment in the Temple in Jerusalem?

I understand that sacrifice was not central to the life of the synagogue, and I’m not sure what would have been practiced during the various exiles and captivities, but one can hardly turn a page in the Hebrew scriptures with a bull or a sheep being slaughtered on an altar or at least some reference being made to such.

And I say that as someone who is TOTALLY okay with all that. I’m just saying it seems like a “core theme” of Judaism from what I read.

And The Mass is central to Catholics, However we must stop thinking in modern western times. Would the catholic man/family in the 1700/1800’s that came to America and settled in a place, or continued west in to places that there was no priest stop being catholic? No, they would continue to practice the faith to the best of there ability and look to a day when they would have a priest again to celebrate the Mass. Also keep in mind that Hebrew people were not called to make the temple sacrifices every time they came together for worship. Also just image for one moment that the temple is rebuilt ( I do look to it being do so one day) There are many Jewish people that if they were to be able to get to Jerusalem from were ever in the world they live it would more that likely be a once in a life time pilgrimage. Shalom

 

[GaryTaylor]

Also just image for one moment that the temple is rebuilt ( I do look to it being do so one day)

What do you think this will accomplish?

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

What do you think this will accomplish?

I am not sure that it would accomplish anything. I think if we were to discuss all the possible things that maybe accomplished by it we would severely derail this thread Maybe start another thread asking that question. It is however something that I would like to see happen. My point was that even if the Temple were standing many Jewish people would more than likely never get to it and if they did would only make it once.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I am not sure that it would accomplish anything. I think if we were to discuss all the possible things that maybe accomplished by it we would severely derail this thread Maybe start another thread asking that question. It is however something that I would like to see happen. My point was that even if the Temple were standing many Jewish people would more than likely never get to it and if they did would only make it once.

So you would like to see it rebuilt but not because it might accomplish anything?

I read somewhere that the OT Judaism and current Judaism are not the same thing

Its appears the Temple is a significant aspect of Orthodox Jews among others such as millennial-jews. But there are many beliefs of what would happen depending which you listen to. I read the October news on the increasing concern over this spot.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

So you would like to see it rebuilt but not because it might accomplish anything?

Its appears the Temple is a significant aspect of Orthodox Jews among others such as millennial-jews. But there are many beliefs of what would happen depending which you listen to. I read the October news on the increasing concern over this spot.

Again I think that is the subject for another thread.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Again I think that is the subject for another thread.

Thats why I posted the OP for you right above. Now if you don’t want to comment than that certainly is your choice. Sorry I don’t agree with your opinion on the above point.