Of course God COULD do it. But that’s not the right question. DID God do it? HOW did God do it? WHY did God do it?
Ever been to Egypt? Go–look at the carvings on the temple walls. You’ll see pharaoh’s armies defeating the Hebrews, plus a lot of other historical events. Papyrus? Still around. Did some records disappear? Sure. But there’s no way a major event like the death of a pharaoh and his army would not be recorded somewhere. Especially at this time–we’re talking Ramses II or soon before or after. These are not mythical pharaohs, they’re historic figures. They don’t just disappear without a mention.
You interpret “may have been destroyed or dissipated over time” as “Egyptian historians would just ignore it? No records at all?”
I guess God was equally surprised when Jesus was arrested by the Sanhedrin and then crucified. So, "at some point in history he says to himself, “Whoops, I slipped up there…I didn’t see that coming… Gee, how do I get Jesus out of this fix? I’d better swoop down and set things right by breaking the very natural laws I created 14.5 billion years ago… and resurrect this dead guy to vindicate him.”ErraticFaith:
Of course God COULD do it. But that’s not the right question. DID God do it? HOW did God do it? WHY did God do it?
Let’s take a look at what God actually is. Om(name removed by moderator)otent, right? Omniscient, right? Outside of space and time, which are part of the created universe, right? So…God was sort of surprised when Moses turned up at the Red Sea, and God said to himself, “Gee, how do I get them out of this fix?” Really? God didn’t know this would happen before the universe was created? If you don’t think so, you need to re-define God. Is that how God works? He creates this fantastic universe with all these intricate natural laws, and then at some point in history he says to himself, “Whoops, I slipped up there…I didn’t see that coming…I’d better swoop down and set things right by breaking the very natural laws I created 14.5 billion years ago.” Nope. That’s not my idea of God. God’s smarter than that!
Let me get this straight…
Yeah, except Pharaohs were in the habit of disappearing stuff they didn’t want inconveniently hanging around to besmirch their records.Kei:
Ever been to Egypt? Go–look at the carvings on the temple walls. You’ll see pharaoh’s armies defeating the Hebrews, plus a lot of other historical events. Papyrus? Still around. Did some records disappear? Sure. But there’s no way a major event like the death of a pharaoh and his army would not be recorded somewhere. Especially at this time–we’re talking Ramses II or soon before or after. These are not mythical pharaohs, they’re historic figures. They don’t just disappear without a mention.
Hello on another thread…Sorry. Wrong interpretation of what I said. The DEFINITION of God–at least in Catholicism–is that God is omniscient. It is a necessary quality of God. My point was that If God is outside time and space and knows everything, then the fact that Moses and Jews needed to cross the Red Sea at some point in time is not a shock or surprise to God. He knew it would happen since before he created the universe. So he could have built in some mechanism–others have given examples–to make this happen according to the natural laws he created. Is God restricted to that? No, of course not. He could “swoop in” as I said if he wanted to; he may do it for all sorts of reasons. In the end it depends on how you define “miracle.” If you define it (as most people do) by saying that God does a miracle by breaking natural laws, that’s fine. But he’s not restricted to that mode of operation, as some people seem to think.
I’m not sure we disagree. Maybe we’re saying the same thing different ways?
Yes, there are several examples of the Egyptians trying to erase (literally) history. Hatshepsut is one. Akhenaton is another. But you know what? We’ve found evidence of those erasures. No evidence of the death of a pharaoh and his army by drowning in the Red Sea. Does that mean it never happened? Not necessarily, but it does raise some red flags and open up some questions.
You just quoted the CCC "“One can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual….” And if you keep reading the CCC here, you will find that the spiritual sense which is divided into 3 senses is founded on the literal sense. That is, within the literal sense, there may be contained one or other or a combination of the spiritual senses. The literal sense is the foundation of biblical interpretation, it is that sense which the inspired author intends to convey through his words. Accordingly, your statement above makes no sense and contradicts the very quote you make from the CCC itself.
Hardly the case. A ‘plain reading’ is usually used in conjunction with the literal sense, i.e., the meaning of the sacred writer conveyed by the words themselves. For example, the first verse of the Bible “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” However, by a ‘plain reading’ understood in this way, the literal sense does not necessarily follow. Sometimes the literal sense is the spiritual sense or a metaphorical sense. For example, the Bible speaks of the ‘arm of God.’ God has no body or arms so the literal sense here is not literally that God has an arm. It is a metaphor so what the sacred writer intends by ‘arm of God’ is something like ‘the strength of God’ which is the meaning the author intends to convey which is the literal sense of the passage.
God is the principle author of the Bible and every part of it. In this sense, it is inadmissible to hold that the Bible, the word of God, can contradict itself, i.e., God contradicting himself. It is also inadmissible to hold that the Bible contains any error as error is incompatible with God, the principle author of Scripture.
The ‘message’ as it were and the historical event are intimately connected. The sacred writer is affirming both, i.e., the miraculous passage through the Red Sea and the salvation and deliverance by God from Egyptian oppression. A fictional tale with a fictional salvation and deliverance by a fictional God is not going to readily move a people to worship the one true God.
I’m not sure if we are agreeing and using different words, or if we have a fundamental disagreement. You decide!
My only quibble would be to substitute “almost always” for “sometimes.”
Well, this is a classic example. Here’s a quick summary of the LITERAL contradictions:
So how many went? 1? 2? 3? 4? They all give different numbers and names.Maybe. But consider Jesus and his parables. Was Jesus telling true stories about actual people and events? No, he was making up a story to make a point.
I agree completely. That’s why the police question a suspect over and over, or ask a witness to describe something several times. If they say exactly the same thing each time, they have memorized a story and are lying. If they add or take away details, they are generally telling the truth.