OT, Sinai and volcanos - Can you help me on this?

[FishyPete]

You don’t. Nothing you can say to such people will make any difference to them, and they will use anything you can say to prove (mainly to themselves) that you don’t know what you are talking about.
Bye the bye, modern geographers using satellite technology have located the biblical Mt. Sinai. It is located within the political borders of Jordan and is a military zone. As such, no foreigners, scientists or not, are not allowed there. There are no volcanos at all - dormant or not - in that region!
When the bug you about the issue…give them an “intellectuals” reply: tell them to go to… (the hot place)…
That should raise an eyebrow or two and put those wise guys in their proper place. It may not be nice, but it sure will feel good!

Thank you for the info, and bless you too!

 

[Auntie_A]

I know this probably isn’t what you are looking for, but personally, my reaction is: so what? Let’s assume that they are right that Mt. Sinai was a volcano and that Scripture is describing an eruption. What does that prove? Just because something can be explained scientifically doesn’t mean that God is not behind it. Their logic is that Mt. Sinai was a volcano, therefore Moses didn’t speak to God or receive the law inscribed on stone tablets. That is a non sequitur, i.e. the conclusion does not logically follow from the premise. Science does not disprove God. In fact, I believe the opposite to be true. When I see how complex our world and universe is, from sub-atomic particles, to clusters of galaxies hundreds of thousands of light years wide, it just reinforces my belief that God exists. To think all of that happened by random happenstance, to me, requires a much bigger leap of faith than believing in God." END QUOTE.

You took the words right out of my mouth…and of course made them more clear and brilliant than I ever could.

Why do people take a small fact or theory and then use it stupidly to disprove something that has been solid for centuries?

The Parting of the Red Sea for example: they have found a sort of raised ground or ridge that extends from one side to the other like a bridge; it is usually under water but has been exposed when the water level is down. This is a fact that we know now; yet before it was known, people believed the story of Moses parting the Red Sea. But in between faith and discovery of this ridge, people have challenged the story saying that you can’t part the sea. Moses and his people must have walked the ridge while the water level was low and then the water level went back up and drowned their pursuers. An act of nature with a God-listening leader calling the shots at the right time.

There are also images of a large ship or ark hidden in the ice near the top of a mountain near Turkey, I believe. (Any corrections or amendments are welcome here). How many times have I heard the complaints that Noah’s ark is a myth?

It makes me wonder what we have still to learn from science, history, archaeology, etc that might shine a brighter light on one more Bible story. This only increases my faith, not my doubts.

Science is full of theories, many of them change as time goes by. The Bible endures through the centuries.

 

[boomerang]

I agree, but still, the OT points to an area where there were no volcanos, and the athiests insist that there was no pillar of smoke leading the people and the fire by night was simply a volcano. This detracts greatly from what I believe was a purely supernatural phenomena.

What I’m saying is that how can I answer from an appologists point of view to prove using internal and external evidence that sinai was not a volcano?

I cannot accept that it was, simply because God protected his people with pillars of fire, and decended on the tent. It must be supernatural.

All bible study points to it not being a volcano.

How do I answer from an appologetics point of view? Can someonme help me here?

I don’t think you can prove whether Sinai was a volcano or not seeing how it’s not 100% certain exactly where Mt. Sinai is. There’s some debate over the exact location. But the area is volcanic. To the west and east of the Sinai peninsula there are lots of dormant volcanoes. Tell your atheist friends (as if it will do any good) that our God was being worshipped long before Moses met Him on Sinai. Abraham met Him first, and there was no volcano involved. God may have been using volcanoes to guide people out of Egypt, and to call Moses up the mountain. You will never prove or disprove the methods of Gods doing. It can’t be done. Let the atheists persist in their fallacies, it’s impossible to even present the most basics facts to their likes without the eye-rolling, etc.

You can’t prove God! You can’t prove the supernatural! This is how it is meant to be. You are on the right track. You see the miraculous in the Exodus, but the non-believer sees a purely natural phenomenon. Only the Holy Spirit can open their eyes. I do understand your question - wanting to show good evidence through apologetics, but I don’t think there is an answer that will suffice to your atheist friends. Their minds are closed and only the Holy Spirit can open them* no matter what you tell them*.

 

[FishyPete]

I don’t think you can prove whether Sinai was a volcano or not seeing how it’s not 100% certain exactly where Mt. Sinai is. There’s some debate over the exact location. But the area is volcanic. To the west and east of the Sinai peninsula there are lots of dormant volcanoes. Tell your atheist friends (as if it will do any good) that our God was being worshipped long before Moses met Him on Sinai. Abraham met Him first, and there was no volcano involved. God may have been using volcanoes to guide people out of Egypt, and to call Moses up the mountain. You will never prove or disprove the methods of Gods doing. It can’t be done. Let the atheists persist in their fallacies, it’s impossible to even present the most basics facts to their likes without the eye-rolling, etc.

You can’t prove God! You can’t prove the supernatural! This is how it is meant to be. You are on the right track. You see the miraculous in the Exodus, but the non-believer sees a purely natural phenomenon. Only the Holy Spirit can open their eyes. I do understand your question - wanting to show good evidence through apologetics, but I don’t think there is an answer that will suffice to your atheist friends. Their minds are closed and only the Holy Spirit can open them* no matter what you tell them*.

I agree with all you have said, but I still firmly believe the biblical evidence points to mount sinai being far away from the volcanos. A pillar of smoke and cloud that decends on the tent, and a pillar of fire that stands between the people of moses and the egyptians doesn’t sound like any volcano I know.

Does it?

Anyone else can back me up on this. I’ve researched plenty of academic articles that prove that mount sinai was not a volcano, I thought that there would be some info here from my Catholic brothers and sisters that might help me in my battle?

 

[FishyPete]

By the way, if mount sinai is a volcano, and Moses didn’t part the red sea with his staff, and command it through God to crash down on the Egyptians, then that FEEDs the argument and strengthens the athiests position. Not ours.

Volcano God equals primitve people in fear.

Land bridige under the water equals fluke of timing.

Don’t you see? Taking away the supernatural, opens the faith up to direct attack.

Of course God uses nature. He made it.

But if there was a land bridge, it would have been so wrtten.

Is there no defense for the supernatural in exodus? Has God become mother nature? I tell you I am more confused than ever.

I see exodus as being a literal happening.

The pillar of smoke CANNOT be a volcano - volcanos don’t float around in the air.

Am I right?

 

[FishyPete]

To be honest, I’m surprised that I am getting resopnses in favor of a Volcano mount sinai, I didn’t expect that at all!

Were the plagues of egypt simple happen-stances of nature as well?

How could moses climb a volcano? That’s impossible, no?

 

[Auntie_A]

Fishy Pete: Perhaps you are missing a point: IF the stories of the bible are all based on natural occurrences, then the bible is full of amazing coincidence and happenstance. There are way too many “natural” events that come out in favor of God’s chosen people…

 

[FishyPete]

Don’t get me wrong, I agree with your posts, and all the posts here - but I was hoping for some information which I could use to refute the athesit claim. I did get some information out of each response I could use.

 

[FishyPete]

Thank you to everyone who has replied so far! I appreciate greatly your time.

Does anyone else have any opinions or information that could help me on this argument?

 

[FishyPete]

I know there are fantastic students and experts on scripture here, and probably biblical geography/archeology who could provide me with some more insight?

I want to be able to refute these claims!

 

[FishyPete]

But of course I appreciate anyone’s ideas and (name removed by moderator)ut - I don’t want to make it sound like I want “expert advice”.

If you have thoughts, lets hear them. thanks.

 

[D_Martin]

How do I respond to aggressive atheists with support from some secular scientists, which claim that Mount Sinai was little more than a volcano (and wasn’t in the Sinai Peninsula), and we all worship a Volcano god, which is utter nonsense I know. They use these passages:

Micah 1:4

The Lord is coming from his holy place; he will come down and walk on the tops of the mountains. 4 Then the mountains will melt under him like wax in a fire; they will pour down into the valleys like water pouring down a hill.

or

Judges 5:4-5

O Lord, when thou wentest out of Seir, and passedst by the regions of Edom, the earth trembled, and the heavens dropped water.

The mountains melted before the face of the Lord, and Sinai before the face of the Lord the God of Israel.

or Exodus

19:16 - On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. 17Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, and the whole mountain trembled violently. 19As the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him…

Are there any people here who can speak to this? I know the sober reading of scripture puts Mount Sinai in the Sinai peninsula, and there are no volcanoes there, but I am not a man of deep knowledge of scripture, so i’m hoping someone here can help me understand?

Thank you and God Bless you in advance!

Well as you know who ever is arguing what you say is betting on others not reading and understanding the scriptures. They always like to take one thing out of context and contest to you what’s wrong with it. Micah wrote the text long after Moses’ day and if you notice words like “is coming” and “he will come” defiantly means a event after the writer has written the text.

There is a mount Sinai and what is documented in the whole of the Torah Sinai is only one of many y physical locations on the earth where the documenters of the scripture have had experiences with the Lord God of Israel. Noah didn’t mention any volcanos nor Abraham, or Isaac or Jacob nor through out the rest of Israeli history when it comes to experiencing God. Though it could seem that way to some one who hasn’t read the bible and trusts what these liars say, there was a whole lot more going on during the days of Moses out in the desert. And if Sinai was a volcano, then how did Moses survive it?

 

[FishyPete]

Well as you know who ever is arguing what you say is betting on others not reading and understanding the scriptures. They always like to take one thing out of context and contest to you what’s wrong with it. Micah wrote the text long after Moses’ day and if you notice words like “is coming” and “he will come” defiantly means a event after the writer has written the text.

There is a mount Sinai and what is documented in the whole of the Torah Sinai is only one of many y physical locations on the earth where the documenters of the scripture have had experiences with the Lord God of Israel. Noah didn’t mention any volcanos nor Abraham, or Isaac or Jacob nor through out the rest of Israeli history when it comes to experiencing God. Though it could seem that way to some one who hasn’t read the bible and trusts what these liars say, there was a whole lot more going on during the days of Moses out in the desert. And if Sinai was a volcano, then how did Moses survive it?

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut! I appreciate the great points you make!!

 

[TimothyH]

But of course I appreciate anyone’s ideas and (name removed by moderator)ut - I don’t want to make it sound like I want “expert advice”.

If you have thoughts, lets hear them. thanks.

I’m not an expert, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last week, but I did go to confession and so…

The Great Rift Valley runs trough Western Africa and that is what formed the Red Sea. The Red Sea is part of the Great Rift Valley.

The Rift Valley is generally active in terms of volcanoes. A new island was found in the south part of the Red Sea in 2001. Reference dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2079353/Amazing-pictures-Red-Sea-volcanic-eruption-creates-new-land.html.

Most of the volcanic activity along the rift valley however, is south of that area toward Eritria, Etheopia, and south. There are a few volcanoes in the Arabian Peninsula but none in the Sinai Peninsula.

Here is a map showing the location of volcanoes in Africa. There are no volcanoes in the Sinai. volcano.oregonstate.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/africa/africa.html

Here is a map of volcanoes active in the last one million years. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filelate_tectonics_map.gif. You can click to drill down onto the Middle East. Nothing in Sinai. What Moses saw could not have been a volcano. There simply were none there.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Sinai

-Tim-

 

[FishyPete]

I’m not an expert, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last week, but I did go to confession and so…

The Great Rift Valley runs trough Western Africa and that is what formed the Red Sea. The Red Sea is part of the Great Rift Valley.

The Rift Valley is generally active in terms of volcanoes. A new island was found in the south part of the Red Sea in 2001. Reference dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2079353/Amazing-pictures-Red-Sea-volcanic-eruption-creates-new-land.html.

Most of the volcanic activity along the rift valley however, is south of that area toward Eritria, Etheopia, and south. There are a few volcanoes in the Arabian Peninsula but none in the Sinai Peninsula.

Here is a map showing the location of volcanoes in Africa. There are no volcanoes in the Sinai. volcano.oregonstate.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/africa/africa.html

Here is a map of volcanoes active in the last one million years. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filelate_tectonics_map.gif. You can click to drill down onto the Middle East. Nothing in Sinai. What Moses saw could not have been a volcano.

-Tim-

Thanks Tim, you informed me, and made me laugh!

God bless!

 

[TimothyH]

Also the Smithsonian has a Global Volcanism Program…

volcano.si.edu/region.cfm?rn=3

The site has some really cool Google Earth placemarks so that you can see the active volcanoes in Google Earth. it is super cool.

-Tim-