OT Violence/Annihilation of Peoples Ordained by God?

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desalesredux

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I have struggled with trying to wrap my mind around the OT passages that bring out the fact that God commanded His people to kill “everything/one that breathed” in a particular locale/tribal group. Passages such as the one that says “dash the infants head against the rocks” causes me great existential grief and confusion. Any thoughts as well as any books or web links on the topic of God ordained “ban” (kill everyone) warfare?
 
The Problem of War in the Old Testament, by Peter C. Craigie

Basically, the infants were destroyed because they belongged to a people that were heavily infested with diseases that Isreal back then could not cure, nor even control from spreading. Give Craigie a read to learn about those peoples’ whom God gave orders to destroy.
 
This troubles me as well. I have not read Cragie’s book, but I find the summary of his argument rather unconvincing and troubling in and of itself.

By that logic, wouldn’t it be morally acceptable to kill innocent victims of some type of plague just to stop it from spreading? Surely if the church opposes all forms of euthanasia, they would not take the position that such an action would be acceptable?

I once had a priest tell me, essentially, that the stories of violence in the Old Testament simply reflect the different perception that the ancient Israelites had of God and his role. We have a different understanding of God as interpreted through the experience of Jesus and the New Testament. I have always still wondered though what exactly we are supposed to DO with these stories, and how we are to understand them as meaningful in our world today.
 
I think everyone who loves Scripture has to come to grips with the problem you’ve brought up. I will share how I came to view it (and I believe it was with God’s help and guidance).

First and biggest concept that helped me was the realization that I couldn’t even imagine the degree of wickedness of the people involved. Several Scripture passages helped.
  1. Prior to the flood:
    *Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that **every *imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
  2. For the wickedness of the Canaanites whom the Jews were to destroy:
    Lev 18: 1-25 and 20:1-23; Deut 18:10-11 (too long to quote)
    Deut 12:31 …for every abominable thing which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
    Deuteronomy 9:5 & 6 …whereas it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out before you.
You may recall that when God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham and his descendants, He told him that it would not happen soon - but rather, not for another 400 years. Only when the wickedness of the Amorites was “complete”, would God give the right of possessing their land to the Israelites.
Gen 15:13-16 “…your descendants will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs, …for four hundred years; …And they shall come back here in the fourth generation; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

I read those verses years ago, before Roe vs Wade and the “sexual revolution”. The wickedness described was shocking; almost unbelievable that there could be such a culture. (What is really frightening is how much of what is described in those verses has now become part of our culture.)

The pondering went on over a long period of time. Will just give a general outline.
  1. Problem: horrible widespread evil
  2. How to change situation
  3. Plans include a Messiah. How to prepare a “good” culture in the midst of such depravity. (a good nation, not just an individual here and there).
  4. No elimination of human free will.
We’re all God’s children and He wishes all to have eternal life.
I compared it to being a parent, loving and desiring all that is good for my children. I pondered whether there could ever be a time when I would have a child removed from my home (I still had children at home at the time). And I realized that “yes”, there could be situations where I would feel compelled to do so; where the behavior of one child would be so destructive (physically and/or morally) that it would be almost impossible to rear the other children properly.

The whole earth and all on it are God’s “household”. It seems that God considered it necessary to remove those who made up the evil culture because of the moral danger they posed to the establishment of a good culture.
Death is how one is removed from earth (and into eternity). Keep in mind, we do not know where those souls are in the next world. We would be very wrong to assume they are all in hell; God takes everything into account when He judges, including one’s environment and upbringing.

Nita
 
I just say that the Jews were just thinking God was ordering them to do so but when God revealed Himself in the NT it was clear that the Jews were just following their whims that thinking YHWH ordered them. Massacring peoples was the natural way to wage war them.
I demand the OT to be read in the light of the NT.
 
Nita said:
I think everyone who loves Scripture has to come to grips with the problem you’ve brought up. I will share how I came to view it (and I believe it was with God’s help and guidance).

First and biggest concept that helped me was the realization that I couldn’t even imagine the degree of wickedness of the people involved. Several Scripture passages helped.
  1. Prior to the flood:
    *Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that **every ***imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
  2. For the wickedness of the Canaanites whom the Jews were to destroy:
    Lev 18: 1-25 and 20:1-23; Deut 18:10-11 (too long to quote)
    Deut 12:31 …for every abominable thing which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.
    Deuteronomy 9:5 & 6 …whereas it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out before you.
You may recall that when God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham and his descendants, He told him that it would not happen soon - but rather, not for another 400 years. Only when the wickedness of the Amorites was “complete”, would God give the right of possessing their land to the Israelites.
Gen 15:13-16 “…your descendants will be sojourners in a land that is not theirs, …for four hundred years; …And they shall come back here in the fourth generation; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”

I read those verses years ago, before Roe vs Wade and the “sexual revolution”. The wickedness described was shocking; almost unbelievable that there could be such a culture. (What is really frightening is how much of what is described in those verses has now become part of our culture.)

The pondering went on over a long period of time. Will just give a general outline.
  1. Problem: horrible widespread evil
  2. How to change situation
  3. Plans include a Messiah. How to prepare a “good” culture in the midst of such depravity. (a good nation, not just an individual here and there).
  4. No elimination of human free will.
We’re all God’s children and He wishes all to have eternal life.
I compared it to being a parent, loving and desiring all that is good for my children. I pondered whether there could ever be a time when I would have a child removed from my home (I still had children at home at the time). And I realized that “yes”, there could be situations where I would feel compelled to do so; where the behavior of one child would be so destructive (physically and/or morally) that it would be almost impossible to rear the other children properly.

The whole earth and all on it are God’s “household”. It seems that God considered it necessary to remove those who made up the evil culture because of the moral danger they posed to the establishment of a good culture.
Death is how one is removed from earth (and into eternity). Keep in mind, we do not know where those souls are in the next world. We would be very wrong to assume they are all in hell; God takes everything into account when He judges, including one’s environment and upbringing.

Nita
Click to expand...
I came to the same understanding. 👍
 
I don’t see it like that at all. First of all you need to understand how and why the history was written this way.

The reason this is recorded in Joshua is because the people responsible for carrying on the ancient traditions of the conquest emphasised that the victories came from God and that Joshua and the tribes followed God’s directions carefully and always dedicated their milatary victories as a sacrifice to God in thanksgiving for his aid. The ban or herem (the slaying of everyone in a defeated town) was practised to show that Israel put all its trust in God alone during the war and sought nothing for itself.

We might be shocked by the brutality, but it need to be remembered that the ancient world wouldn’t share our outlook. Their ethical principles placed the survival of a nation above any personal goods, and indentified success in war or politics with the will of their god or gods. In short- these stories (which are probably over played) are not saying that killing everyone is good. It is a narrative (you know the Bible has narrative, epic and lyrical contents) of how the Hebrews came to understand their victory.

The Israelites began by thinking that God was some kind of super warrior that fought on their side and they were wrong. That is why they were exiled- they didn’t listen to the warnings of the prophets.

After the exile their ideas about God changed. They stopped being about land and started being about a personal responsibility and relationship with God.

In her document Dei Verbum, the Church teaches the Bible must be considered as a whole. The OT is a complete story of the revelation God made to Israel, how they misunderstood and how they came to understand. That understanding blossomed into the prophecies of trito-Isaiah fortelling our saviour, Jesus Christ, that is why it is a beatiful and important part of our history.
 
inthecloud said:
I just say that the Jews were just thinking God was ordering them to do so but when God revealed Himself in the NT it was clear that the Jews were just following their whims that thinking YHWH ordered them. Massacring peoples was the natural way to wage war them.
I demand the OT to be read in the light of the NT.
Click to expand...
Agreed- people’s understanding of how God’ operates is what changed. Their mindset was that of the times-they could not overcome their own prejudices and the use of herem. Besides many archaeologists refute the Joshua account and lean more heavily on Judges as being the mode of"conquest’.Besides if the did such a great job annihilating people why are the always showing up later in Samuel and kings as being a thorn in the side even raising their own temples and influence at court:shrug:
 
Traditionalists might cringe but liberal critical bible schorarship convined with traditional christian moral teachings are one of the things I love more of the Catholic Church.
Most of the histories of combat and genicides by the Jews (Joshua, Esther) were greatly exagerated. By a oppressed people that needed military heroes.
And the understanding of God changes during the Bible. I’m a evolutionists, a theistic one and I see the Bible as a evolving revelation.
 
Has any one ever considered that some of the stronger language might have been euphamisms? I have never heard this, but I would be surprised if such devices did not exist, even if they lost their meaning to us. Especially when it comes to violence we tend to be a colorful people. Three thousand years from now, what will people think about “smoke 'em”, “wipe them out”, put a boot up their… er… shirt"
 
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