"other" Catholic churches?

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I recently had a conversation with another person (from an Evangelical Free Church) who tried to make a point that there were several other Catholic churches besides the “Roman” Catholic church. I realize that perhaps he was trying to distinguish between Latin rite and Eastern Catholic churches, but I strongly suspect that he meant something else. I asked him what other Catholic churches he was thinking of and he vaguely referred to one example being something like a Charismatic Catholic church. He really couldn’t offer anything more specific than that, only that he was sure that he knew for a fact that there were these “other” Catholic churches.

The discussion was very strange, plus we were both putting a lot of energy into being “polite” with each other. It ended with me not really understanding what he was talking about. Knowing that his denomination has some really strange ideas about what the Catholic church teaches, I feel a little at a loss. Who knows what this guy has been taught. :shrug:But I would like to understand.

Any ideas out there? I won’t be able to talk to him again for another month.
 
There are 26 sui juris “rites” or Churches which, together, are the Catholic Church. We do not have a trademark on the word Catholic, though, so many ecclesial communities outside the Church use the word in their titles as well.

Their similarity in belief and practice to the genuine article can vary wildly.
 
chris_molter said:
so many ecclesial communities outside the Church use the word in their titles as well.

Their similarity in belief and practice to the genuine article can vary wildly.
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Ok, can someone give me a few examples? Recalling the discussion I had, I think he brought this up in the context of me asking him what he thought about how all the various Protestant denominations vary one way or another in their beliefs and how does one determine which one is right. His response was to say that there was more than one Catholic church that had different doctrines, as if that was the same thing. Of course I completely understand how these other churches are not a part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church… just wondering if anyone can offer some names and perhaps what they are about.
 
jujubee said:
I recently had a conversation with another person (from an Evangelical Free Church) who tried to make a point that there were several other Catholic churches besides the “Roman” Catholic church. I realize that perhaps he was trying to distinguish between Latin rite and Eastern Catholic churches, but I strongly suspect that he meant something else. I asked him what other Catholic churches he was thinking of and he vaguely referred to one example being something like a Charismatic Catholic church. He really couldn’t offer anything more specific than that, only that he was sure that he knew for a fact that there were these “other” Catholic churches.

The discussion was very strange, plus we were both putting a lot of energy into being “polite” with each other. It ended with me not really understanding what he was talking about. Knowing that his denomination has some really strange ideas about what the Catholic church teaches, I feel a little at a loss. Who knows what this guy has been taught. :shrug:But I would like to understand.

Any ideas out there? I won’t be able to talk to him again for another month.
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There are many other groups of Christians who have separated for the Catholic Church and continue to use the name “catholic” althought they technically have no right to it. Old Catholic, Polish National Catholic, etc.
 
Would it be correct to refer to these other churches that still use the name Catholic as basically another Protestant denomination?
 
jujubee said:
Would it be correct to refer to these other churches that still use the name Catholic as basically another Protestant denomination?
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If they have valid holy orders and apostolic succession they would be considered schismatic Churches.

If they do not, they would be considered ecclesial communities.
 
I think this is actually a split from the ‘Old Catholic Church’, but they call themselves ‘Ecumenical Catholic.’ If you’re intrested in female clergy giving the sacrament to whoever walks in the door look up www.sandamianochurch.com. They seem like nice people…
 
The “Catholic Church” is composed of 23 individual Catholic Churches, in union with the Pope. The Latin branch is by far the largest, and is so large, that most people are not aware of the other 22. Here is a listing of the 22 Eastern Catholic Churches:

**1.Alexandrian liturgical tradition **
1.Coptic Catholic Church (patriarchate): Cairo, (163,849), Egypt (1741)
2.Ethiopian Catholic Church[1] (metropolia): Addis Ababa, (208,093), Ethiopia, Eritrea (1846)

**2.Antiochian (Antiochene or West-Syrian) liturgical tradition **
1.Maronite Church[2] (patriarchate): Bkerke, (3,105,278), Lebanon, Cyprus, Jordan, Israel, Palestinian Authority, Egypt, Syria, Argentina, Brazil, United States, Australia, Canada, Mexico (union re-affirmed 1182)
2.Syriac Catholic Church[3] (patriarchate): Beirut,(131,692), Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Palestinian Authority, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Turkey, United States and Canada, Venezuela (1781)
3.Syro-Malankara Catholic Church[4] (major archiepiscopate): Trivandrum, (412,640), India, United States (1930)

**3.Armenian liturgical tradition: **
1.Armenian Catholic Church[5] (patriarchate): Beirut, (375,182), Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Palestinian Authority, Ukraine, France, Greece, Latin America, Argentina, Romania, United States, Canada, Eastern Europe (1742)

**4.Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition: **
1.Chaldean Catholic Church[6] (patriarchate): Baghdad, (418,194), Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, United States (1692)
2.Syro-Malabar Church[7] (major archiepiscopate): Ernakulam, (3,902,089), India, Middle East, Europe and America (date disputed)

**5.Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition: **
1.Albanian Greek Catholic Church (apostolic administration): (3,510), Albania (1628)
2.Belarusian Greek Catholic Church (no established hierarchy at present): (10,000), Belarus (1596)
3.Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church[8] (apostolic exarchate): Sofia,(10,107), Bulgaria (1861)
4.Byzantine Church of the Eparchy of Križevci[9] (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate): Križevci, Ruski Krstur (21,480) + (22,653), Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro (1611)
5.Greek Byzantine Catholic Church[10] (two apostolic exarchates): Athens, (2,325), Greece, Turkey (1829)
6.Hungarian Greek Catholic Church[11] (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate): Nyiregyháza, (290,000), Hungary (1646)
7.Italo-Albanian Catholic Church (two eparchies and a territorial abbacy): (63,240), Italy (Never separated)
8.Macedonian Greek Catholic Church (an apostolic exarchate): Skopje, (11,491), Republic of Macedonia (1918)
9.Melkite Greek Catholic Church[12] (patriarchate): Damascus, (1,346,635), Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Brazil, United States, Canada, Mexico, Iraq, Egypt and Sudan, Kuwait, Australia, Venezuela, Argentina (1726)
10.Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic[13] (major archiepiscopate): Blaj, (776,529) Romania, United States (1697)
11.Russian Catholic Church[14]: (two apostolic exarchates, at present with no published hierarchs): Russia, China (1905); currently about 20 parishes and communities scattered around the world, including five in Russia itself, answering to bishops of other jurisdictions
12.Ruthenian Catholic Church[15] (a sui juris metropolia[16], an eparchy[17], and an apostolic exarchate[18]): Uzhhorod, Pittsburgh, (594,465), United States, Ukraine, Czech Republic (1646)
13.Slovak Greek Catholic Church (metropolia): Prešov, (243,335), Slovak Republic, Canada (1646)
14.Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church[19] (major archiepiscopate): Kyiv, (4,223,425), Ukraine, Poland, United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Germany and Scandinavia, France, Brazil, Argentina (1595)

Now, in addition to this are “schismatic” churches. They are true churches in the sense that they have valid apostolic succession and valid sacraments. Some use the name Catholic, and others do not. The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East do not generally use the Catholic title. Those that DO are probably the groups that the person you were debating with was talking about. This could include schismatic groups such as:
  1. The Polish National Catholic Church
  2. The “Old Catholic Church”
  3. The Society of St. Pius V (SSPV)
…and various other groups such as this. There are quite a few priests who have engaged in dubious practices, been excommunicated from the church, and simply continued on with their parish in another place, as a type of “independent” Catholic Church. For example, there’s a small group in Africa under former Archbishop Milingo that separated due to the desire for a married priesthood. There’s also the Roman Catholic Womenpriest Movement, which was excommunicated for ordaining women. It might also refer to the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) which, while not technically in schism, may be dangerously close to it and of at least “questionable” status. (See if any two people on this board ever give you the same answer about the SSPX twice, and you’ll see the problem…)

There are charismatic Catholics within the Latin branch of the Catholic Church, which are allowed to practice this form of worship. As far as I know, there is no separate schismatic movement yet, although I could be wrong.
 
Rolltide said:
The “Catholic Church” is composed of 23 individual Catholic Churches, in union with the Pope. The Latin branch is by far the largest, and is so large, that most people are not aware of the other 22. Here is a listing of the 22 Eastern Catholic Churches:

**1.Alexandrian liturgical tradition **
1.Coptic Catholic Church (patriarchate): Cairo, (163,849), Egypt (1741)
2.Ethiopian Catholic Church[1] (metropolia): Addis Ababa, (208,093), Ethiopia, Eritrea (1846)

**2.Antiochian (Antiochene or West-Syrian) liturgical tradition **
1.Maronite Church[2] (patriarchate): Bkerke, (3,105,278), Lebanon, Cyprus, Jordan, Israel, Palestinian Authority, Egypt, Syria, Argentina, Brazil, United States, Australia, Canada, Mexico (union re-affirmed 1182)
2.Syriac Catholic Church[3] (patriarchate): Beirut,(131,692), Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Palestinian Authority, Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Turkey, United States and Canada, Venezuela (1781)
3.Syro-Malankara Catholic Church[4] (major archiepiscopate): Trivandrum, (412,640), India, United States (1930)

**3.Armenian liturgical tradition: **
1.Armenian Catholic Church[5] (patriarchate): Beirut, (375,182), Lebanon, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, Jordan, Palestinian Authority, Ukraine, France, Greece, Latin America, Argentina, Romania, United States, Canada, Eastern Europe (1742)

**4.Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition: **
1.Chaldean Catholic Church[6] (patriarchate): Baghdad, (418,194), Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, United States (1692)
2.Syro-Malabar Church[7] (major archiepiscopate): Ernakulam, (3,902,089), India, Middle East, Europe and America (date disputed)

**5.Byzantine (Constantinopolitan) liturgical tradition: **
1.Albanian Greek Catholic Church (apostolic administration): (3,510), Albania (1628)
2.Belarusian Greek Catholic Church (no established hierarchy at present): (10,000), Belarus (1596)
3.Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church[8] (apostolic exarchate): Sofia,(10,107), Bulgaria (1861)
4.Byzantine Church of the Eparchy of Križevci[9] (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate): Križevci, Ruski Krstur (21,480) + (22,653), Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro (1611)
5.Greek Byzantine Catholic Church[10] (two apostolic exarchates): Athens, (2,325), Greece, Turkey (1829)
6.Hungarian Greek Catholic Church[11] (an eparchy and an apostolic exarchate): Nyiregyháza, (290,000), Hungary (1646)
7.Italo-Albanian Catholic Church (two eparchies and a territorial abbacy): (63,240), Italy (Never separated)
8.Macedonian Greek Catholic Church (an apostolic exarchate): Skopje, (11,491), Republic of Macedonia (1918)
9.Melkite Greek Catholic Church[12] (patriarchate): Damascus, (1,346,635), Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel, Brazil, United States, Canada, Mexico, Iraq, Egypt and Sudan, Kuwait, Australia, Venezuela, Argentina (1726)
10.Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic[13] (major archiepiscopate): Blaj, (776,529) Romania, United States (1697)
11.Russian Catholic Church[14]: (two apostolic exarchates, at present with no published hierarchs): Russia, China (1905); currently about 20 parishes and communities scattered around the world, including five in Russia itself, answering to bishops of other jurisdictions
12.Ruthenian Catholic Church[15] (a sui juris metropolia[16], an eparchy[17], and an apostolic exarchate[18]): Uzhhorod, Pittsburgh, (594,465), United States, Ukraine, Czech Republic (1646)
13.Slovak Greek Catholic Church (metropolia): Prešov, (243,335), Slovak Republic, Canada (1646)
14.Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church[19] (major archiepiscopate): Kyiv, (4,223,425), Ukraine, Poland, United States, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, Germany and Scandinavia, France, Brazil, Argentina (1595)

Now, in addition to this are “schismatic” churches. They are true churches in the sense that they have valid apostolic succession and valid sacraments. Some use the name Catholic, and others do not. The Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Church of the East do not generally use the Catholic title. Those that DO are probably the groups that the person you were debating with was talking about. This could include schismatic groups such as:
  1. The Polish National Catholic Church
  2. The “Old Catholic Church”
  3. The Society of St. Pius V (SSPV)
…and various other groups such as this. There are quite a few priests who have engaged in dubious practices, been excommunicated from the church, and simply continued on with their parish in another place, as a type of “independent” Catholic Church. For example, there’s a small group in Africa under former Archbishop Milingo that separated due to the desire for a married priesthood. There’s also the Roman Catholic Womenpriest Movement, which was excommunicated for ordaining women. It might also refer to the Society of St. Pius X (SSPX) which, while not technically in schism, may be dangerously close to it and of at least “questionable” status. (See if any two people on this board ever give you the same answer about the SSPX twice, and you’ll see the problem…)

There are charismatic Catholics within the Latin branch of the Catholic Church, which are allowed to practice this form of worship. As far as I know, there is no separate schismatic movement yet, although I could be wrong.
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As soon as I saw this thread, I was immediately reminded of this fantastic post that Roltided had made a while back and was going to search for and link to it.

This is absolutely great! Thank you, Rolltide.

In addition the the schismatic churches that rolltide mention in his second to the last paragraph, I would add the American Catholic Church, the Reformed Catholic Church, and pretty much any group that puts some oddball adjective near the word “Catholic”.
 
rpp said:
As soon as I saw this thread, I was immediately reminded of this fantastic post that Roltided had made a while back and was going to search for and link to it.

This is absolutely great! Thank you, Rolltide.
Click to expand...
I’m glad you liked my post! I can’t take total credit for it though… some is from other sources (including Wikipedia… GAH!).
 
kimbaichan said:
I think this is actually a split from the ‘Old Catholic Church’, but they call themselves ‘Ecumenical Catholic.’
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There are actually quite a few splinter denominations which call themselves Catholic, and which claim apostolic succession throught the Old Catholic Church (Union of Utrecht). The Liberal Catholic Church is one of them, as is the one you mentioned.
 
jujubee said:
Would it be correct to refer to these other churches that still use the name Catholic as basically another Protestant denomination?
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No, because they are for the most part schismatic. However some, yes.
 
Ok, this has all been very helpful and enlightening. Thank you everyone.
 
I think it’s important to mention that even those separated groups which have valid Priests practice outside the auspices of Rome, therefore Catholics should never attend their valid, but illicit Masses, nor seek any other sacraments from them.

IIRC, there are a few exceptions (imminent death, etc), but as a general rule, we are to avoid those who voluntarily (and usually enthusiastically) separate themselves from the communion of the Catholic Church.
 
chris_molter said:
I think it’s important to mention that even those separated groups which have valid Priests practice outside the auspices of Rome, therefore Catholics should never attend their valid, but illicit Masses, nor seek any other sacraments from them.
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There is limited intercommunion between the Roman Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic Church.
 
Rolltide said:
The “Catholic Church” is composed of 23 individual Catholic Churches, in union with the Pope. The Latin branch is by far the largest, and is so large, that most people are not aware of the other 22. Here is a listing of the 22 Eastern Catholic Churches:
Click to expand...
Aren’t there two other Western rites? Do the Mozarabic and Ambrosian rites still exist?
 
Jacobus said:
Aren’t there two other Western rites? Do the Mozarabic and Ambrosian rites still exist?
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Here are the rites for the Latin branch of the Catholic Church

The Western (Latin) Catholic Church

Latin liturgical tradition
  1. Ordinary Form
  2. Extraordinary Form
  3. Ambrosian Rite (Only permitted in the Archdiocese of Milan)
  4. Mozarabic Rite (Only permitted in the Cathedral of Toledo, Spain and a few surrounding churches of the diocese)
  5. Bragan Rite (Only permitted in the Archdiocese of Braga, Portugal)
  6. Anglican-Use Mass (This form is permitted in the extremely rare circumstance in which an Anglican priest converts to Catholicism and brings his entire parish with him. In that event, a parish may continue to use the Anglican liturgy, with corrections to make it conform with Catholic teachings This is currently meant as a transitional liturgy, and upon the death of the pastor, the church reverts to the Ordinary Form.)
Rites of Religious Orders (These are not technically rites per se, but rather small variants of the Roman liturgy. The Ambrosian, Mozarabic, and Bragan Rites fall into this category too.):
  1. Dominican Rite
  2. Carthusian Rite
  3. Carmelite Rite
  4. Cisternian Rite
 
Rolltide said:
Here are the rites for the Latin branch of the Catholic Church

The Western (Latin) Catholic Church

Latin liturgical tradition
  1. Ordinary Form
  2. Extraordinary Form
  3. Ambrosian Rite (Only permitted in the Archdiocese of Milan)
  4. Mozarabic Rite (Only permitted in the Cathedral of Toledo, Spain and a few surrounding churches of the diocese)
  5. Bragan Rite (Only permitted in the Archdiocese of Braga, Portugal)
  6. Anglican-Use Mass (This form is permitted in the extremely rare circumstance in which an Anglican priest converts to Catholicism and brings his entire parish with him. In that event, a parish may continue to use the Anglican liturgy, with corrections to make it conform with Catholic teachings This is currently meant as a transitional liturgy, and upon the death of the pastor, the church reverts to the Ordinary Form.)
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Thank you. I had never heard of the Bragan rite before. I see now that the Mozarabic, Ambrosian, and Bragan rites are not autonomous churches like the Eastern Catholic churches.
 
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