Other Christian denomination responses?

[Prodigal_Son1]

He probably accepted it, as you say, since he was (and we still are) of the Western Church. However, in 1537 the Lutheran reformers accepted this document, now part of our Confessions, and while I reject some of the polemics in it, the thrust of the document leaves me so full of doubts about universal jurisdiction.

bookofconcord.org/treatise.php

Jon

I’ll try to read it later when I have more time. I only scanned it briefly and find it hard that someone would accept a theological view from the 1500s over what was tradition from the beginning. It seems to pitch scriptures against scriptures to arrive at a view. Matthew 16 and John 21 are quite clear on Peter being singled out, in my opinion. Of course we know it was later on that other beliefs of Martin Luther became rejected as well. There’s no need to go into detail as some still believe parts and others are at liberty to reject without the doctrines to make everyone be of the same mind and judgment.

 

[Vile_Servant]

You state the obvious, and it is unfortunate, because schism has wounded His Church and ministry. Since the one Church is divided and in schism, that teaching authority is similarly divided. I guess it comes down to, at least in part, a disagreement between us on whether or not that authority rests exclusively with the Bishop of Rome and the Magisterium, even though that exclusivity is not found in scripture, no other communion agrees with Rome regarding it, nor is that exclusive authority found in the early Church (Tradition).

Jon

Matthew 16:18-19
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.’

Christ will build ONE church, which shall not be divided (by the powers of hell). Exclusive authority is given to Peter as the head of the church.

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and said to them, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.’

Christ confers teaching authority to his Church, and promises to be with her always. That is why the one Church built by Christ from the time of the Apostles will never fall away, or fall into error.

The Roman Catholic Church, the Bishop of Rome and the Magisterium have the most authentic claim to unbroken Apostolic Succession and exclusive teaching authority of Christ’s one holy and apostolic Church, as well as the most authentic claim to be the most faithful to all the teachings of the commandments of Jesus Christ.

 

[JonNC]

=Vile Servant;6341973]Matthew 16:18-19
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.’

And the Catholic Church does not have exclusivity to St. Peter, his confession of faith, nor the Church’s power to bind and loose.

Christ will build ONE church, which shall not be divided (by the powers of hell). Exclusive authority is given to Peter as the head of the church.

I agree, and we are both part of it, but there is no evidence that His one true Church is exclusively the institutional entity know as the Catholic Church (those in communion with the Bishop of Rome).

Matthew 28:18-20
And Jesus came and said to them, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.’

Exactly.

Christ confers teaching authority to his Church, and promises to be with her always. That is why the one Church built by Christ from the time of the Apostles will never fall away, or fall into error.

Yet, there is still no evidence that Christ’s one True Church is exclusively the institutional entity know as the Catholic Church, though she and her members are certainly part of it.

The Roman Catholic Church, the Bishop of Rome and the Magisterium have the most authentic claim to unbroken Apostolic Succession and exclusive teaching authority of Christ’s one holy and apostolic Church, as well as the most authentic claim to be the most faithful to all the teachings of the commandments of Jesus Christ.

If you can convince the EOC of this, and end the 1,000 year schism, I will sign up for RCIA. Nothing in scripture, nor the early Church, nor the early councils grants the one patriarchate that is Rome exclusive teaching authority or universal jurisdiction.

Jon

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Clement of Rome

Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).

Ignatius of Antioch

You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).

Irenaeus

But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).

Clement of Alexandria

[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? “Behold, we have left all and have followed you” [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).

Tertullian

[T]he Lord said to Peter, “On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven” [Matt. 16:18-19]. … Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).

Letter of Clement to James

Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]).

Cyprian

With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).
The Lord says to Peter: “I say to you,” he says, “that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church” . . . On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was , but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).
Cyril of Jerusalem

In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9 ;3 2-3 4] (Catechetical Lectures 17;27 [A.D. 350]).

Optatus

In the city of Rome the Episcopal chair was given first to Peter, the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head — that is why he is also called Cephas — of all the apostles, the one chair in which unity is maintained by all. Neither do the apostles proceed individually on their own, and anyone who would [presume to] set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner. . . . Recall, then, the origins of your chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of holy Church" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [circa A.D. 367]).

Ambrose of Milan

[Christ] made answer: “You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . .” Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]? (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Augustine

Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear “I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven” (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).
Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter? (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).

 

[JonNC]

Prodigal_Son1:
You will not hear Lutherans object to the important role of St. Peter, nor the Bishop of Rome, nor question his jurisdiction given at Nice as the Western Jurisdiction. And none of the quotes you site in any way allude to universal jurisdiction, but only to “first among equals”.

As I told VS, convince the EOC of his universal jurisdiction, and infallibility, and I will be in RCIA. Otherwise, we must continue to seek unity through prayerful dialogue.

Jon

 

[ricko]

You state the obvious, and it is unfortunate, because schism has wounded His Church and ministry. Since the one Church is divided and in schism, that teaching authority is similarly divided. I guess it comes down to, at least in part, a disagreement between us on whether or not that authority rests exclusively with the Bishop of Rome and the Magisterium, even though that exclusivity is not found in scripture, no other communion agrees with Rome regarding it, nor is that exclusive authority found in the early Church (Tradition).

Jon

“The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the epistle to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21]. To him succeeded Anencletus, and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was chosen for the episcopate. He had seen the blessed apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the apostles and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the Church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. . . To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded. . . and now, in the twelfth place after the apostles, the lot of the episcopate [of Rome] has fallen to Eleutherus. In this order, and by the teaching of the apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us” (Against Heresies 3:3:3 [inter AD. 180-190]).

“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops qf the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (ibid. 3:3:2).

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You will not hear Lutherans object to the important role of St. Peter, nor the Bishop of Rome, nor question his jurisdiction given at Nice as the Western Jurisdiction. And none of the quotes you site in any way allude to universal jurisdiction, but only to “first among equals”.

As I told VS, convince the EOC of his universal jurisdiction, and infallibility, and I will be in RCIA. Otherwise, we must continue to seek unity through prayerful dialogue.

Jon

Surely one can see the universal jurisdiction, as it existed through the life of the early since it’s beginning.

After reading your post, I have to wonder how ‘first among equals’ is defined?

People try and make the position a dictatorship, which it is not. By Peter’s example, the pope takes counsel from those of Apostolic succession. People try and make it as if everything a pope says is infallible, it is not.

The pope is the ‘prime minister’ of Christ, acting as head in His earthly absence. There were not twelve Christs, there was one. When you view the Apostles appointed by Christ, through the writings of scripture, you see they taught one message.

One last point, some deny a single position of leader over the others, because it’s not specifically mentioned or listed to their satisfaction. If we look closely at scriptures and the writings of the early Church fathers, we see there is no denial explicitly stated, as it is around many circles today. In fact, we find quite the opposite, if you read the statements for what they are and not try to read other meanings in to them.

[T]he blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples…

Letter of Clement to James

Quote:
Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]).

 

[JonNC]

=Prodigal Son1;6342316]Surely one can see the universal jurisdiction, as it existed through the life of the early since it’s beginning.

Surely not, and excluding western non-catholic Christians for the moment, because only one of the Patriarchs sees it. Why is it that no Orthodox Church sees it, if it is so obvious from the beginning of the Church.

After reading your post, I have to wonder how ‘first among equals’ is defined?

Look to how the early Church viewed the Bishop of Rome, whose jurisdiction is set in the early council as the western jurisdiction. Clearly, the others looked to him for guidance. That does not extend to universal jurisdiction.

People try and make the position a dictatorship, which it is not. By Peter’s example, the pope takes counsel from those of Apostolic succession. People try and make it as if everything a pope says is infallible, it is not.

Not me. I’m not saying that. But even his infallibility was set without the benefit of a truly ecumenical council. Is there a wonder why all other Christian communions reject it, even those who have Apostolic Succession?

The pope is the ‘prime minister’ of Christ, acting as head in His earthly absence. There were not twelve Christs, there was one. When you view the Apostles appointed by Christ, through the writings of scripture, you see they taught one message.

One last point, some deny a single position of leader over the others, because it’s not specifically mentioned or listed to their satisfaction. If we look closely at scriptures and the writings of the early Church fathers, we see there is no denial explicitly stated, as it is around many circles today. In fact, we find quite the opposite, if you read the statements for what they are and not try to read other meanings in to them.

And again, no other Christian denomination - for a 1,000 years recognizes the level of jurisdiction that the Bishop of Rome claims for himself. A denial may not be explicitly stated, but neither is there an acknowledgement of it.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

“The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the epistle to Timothy [2 Tim. 4:21]. To him succeeded Anencletus, and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was chosen for the episcopate. He had seen the blessed apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that he still heard the echoes of the preaching of the apostles and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the Church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. . . To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded. . . and now, in the twelfth place after the apostles, the lot of the episcopate [of Rome] has fallen to Eleutherus. In this order, and by the teaching of the apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us” (Against Heresies 3:3:3 [inter AD. 180-190]).

“But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops qf the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (ibid. 3:3:2).

Are you claiming this as proof that the early Church considered Rome to have universal jurisdiction.

I have a question for all my Catholic siblings here; how does the Catholic Church, or rather who in the Catholic Church determines who becomes a bishop?

Jon

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

And again, no other Christian denomination - for a 1,000 years recognizes the level of jurisdiction that the Bishop of Rome claims for himself. A denial may not be explicitly stated, but neither is there an acknowledgement of it.

Jon

The largest majority of Christian denominations came through the Lutheran Church, which came through the Catholic Church, and then each other until we have thousands of denominations. To acknowledge the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome would invalidate their own Churches. What they believe, or reject in this case, is of no consequence, other than it divides the body of Christ to unbelievable extremes.

As for the denial vs. acknowledgement statement, I see the same argument over things like infant baptism. Of course one has to reject the writings of the early Church fathers, or set their own time limits on those writings, to maintain their view, so it seems.

 

[Looking_back]

Martin Luther should’ve recanted and avoided excommunication. Instead, he built another Church. Man cannot improve on what Christ built, and we all know that eventually a reform did take place in the Catholic Church.

Never should he have recanted.

 

[JonNC]

=Prodigal Son1;6342498]The largest majority of Christian denominations came through the Lutheran Church, which came through the Catholic Church, and then each other until we have thousands of denominations.

I am not aware of any denomination that is a splinter off of Lutheranism. But this does not explain the position of Orthodoxy, and why on this issue, they and we are in agreement.

To acknowledge the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome would invalidate their own Churches. What they believe, or reject in this case, is of no consequence, other than it divides the body of Christ to unbelievable extremes.

The Lutheran Confessions recognize the jurisdiction as set in the early councils, and it does not invalidate our ministry. And the division within the Church regarding this existed long before Luther.

As for the denial vs. acknowledgement statement, I see the same argument over things like infant baptism. Of course one has to reject the writings of the early Church fathers, or set their own time limits on those writings, to maintain their view, so it seems.

I thought there was evidence of infant baptism in the early Church. And Lutherans are not quick to reject the early writings of the Church.

Jon

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Never should he have recanted.

None of it should have ever happened, but we’re beyond that now. It’s the future we need to look towards. Finding common ground is going to be difficult, if at all possible, since there are more objections to deal with since the original objections that caused the separation.

 

[MuddyRocker]

I thought this was a great quote from the Reformer Martin Luther. I hope we all as Christians work towards unity again like Christ asked. Any thoughts from other denominations on this quote?

“I never approved of a schism, nor will I approve of it for all eternity. . . . That the Roman Church is more honored by God than all others is not to be doubted. St, Peter and St. Paul, forty-six Popes, some hundreds of thousands of martyrs, have laid down their lives in its communion, having overcome Hell and the world; so that the eyes of God rest on the Roman church with special favor. Though nowadays everything is in a wretched state, it is no ground for separating from the Church. On the contrary, the worse things are going, the more should we hold close to her, for it is not by separating from the Church that we can make her better. We must not separate from God on account of any work of the devil, nor cease to have fellowship with the children of God who are still abiding in the pale of Rome on account of the multitude of the ungodly. There is no sin, no amount of evil, which should be permitted to dissolve the bond of charity or break the bond of unity of the body. For love can do all things, and nothing is difficult to those who are united.”

Martin Luther to Pope Leo X, January 6, 1519
more than a year after the Ninety-Five Theses
quoted in The Facts about Luther, 356

Thank you very much for that. That quote should be a testimony to every Christian out there. The Church of Christ should not be separated.

 

[JonNC]

None of it should have ever happened, but we’re beyond that now. It’s the future we need to look towards. Finding common ground is going to be difficult, if at all possible, since there are more objections to deal with since the original objections that caused the separation.

Actually, you and I have common ground. If I recall correctly, you believe that the distinction between the Lutheran concept of “faith alone” and the Catholic concept of “faith and works” lacks much difference. If true, that is a remarkable understanding, expressed in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, which could not have happened 75 years ago. The Holy Spirit is moving us, thank God.

Jon

 

[MuddyRocker]

“These things are clearer than the light to all men; and the Church of Rome, formerly the most holy of all Churches, has become the most lawless den of thieves, the most shameless of all brothels, the very kingdom of sin, death, and hell; so that not even antichrist, if he were to come, could devise any addition to its wickedness.”

• Excerpt of letter from Martin Luther to Pope Leo X.
  Wittenberg, 6th September, 1520.

Just listen to the language Martin Luther used to describe the Roman Catholic Church.
Would any Lutheran, or Protestant for that matter, agree with Martin Luther’s polemic today? If not, will they accept that the gates of hell have not prevailed against Christ’s Church, and the Rock upon which it was founded?

Fellow Servant,
I believe these other religions DO in fact accept that the gates of hell have not prevailed against Christ’s Church and the Rock upon which it was founded! However, we do not believe that church to be the CC or the rock to be Peter. The rock is Christ and the fact that he is the Son - the church is the multi-religion flock of people in the servitude of Christ and the family of God.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Actually, you and I have common ground. If I recall correctly, you believe that the distinction between the Lutheran concept of “faith alone” and the Catholic concept of “faith and works” lacks much difference. If true, that is a remarkable understanding, expressed in the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, which could not have happened 75 years ago. The Holy Spirit is moving us, thank God.

Jon

A small step for men, a giant leap for mankind?

(That ‘pun’ shows my age?)

 

[MuddyRocker]

So if it was never mailed, as some speculate, was it not what was in Martin’s Luther’s heart at the time he wrote it?

Wasn’t Martin Luther offered a chance to ‘recant’ and avoid an excommunication, thus allowing him the opportunity to stay within the Church and seek ‘reform’?

He was afforded the opportunity to recant his 95 these, which he refused. He was not excommunicated for it. In fact, the ruler of the Holy Roman Empire caved to Martin and the others of whom he would have had to kill had he not done so. He did not want to kill them since he needed their assistance in fighting wars against foreign entities at the time. In fact, that is probably why Martin Luther wasn’t beheaded publicly.

 

[TriuneUnity]

The rock is Christ and the fact that he is the Son - the church is the multi-religion flock of people in the servitude of Christ and the family of God.

Amen, the gates of Hell have not prevailed against this confession: “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.”