Other Planets/Galaxies

[wanstronian]

In my view existence applies not only to human beings but also to living organisms and inanimate objects. In my statement it is linked with the universe and not with human beings in particular. I was referring to atheists and I’m astonished you regard existence as intrinsically valuable, purposeful and rational. I can only think you are interpreting existence as human existence and not the existence of all living organisms and inanimate objects.

I guess I just find that the word ‘futile’ conjurs up a very bleak image. I don’t believe that the universe serves a ‘higher purpose’, so in that context I suppose ‘futile’ is an adequate word. You are not far wrong with your supposition that I am referring to human existence, but I would clarify and say that I am referring to subjective individual experience. I personally think the universe, life etc. is totally awe-inspiring - from that pov I find the existence of everything to be intrinsically valuable to me personally, and I honestly believe I would find it massively less so if God were discovered to be the cause. For me the wonder is that the laws of nature, evolution, and others that we haven’t yet discovered, have contrived to produce an orderly universe with incredible variety. To find that someone had ‘built’ it would be extremely disappointing because, remarkable though that feat would be, it would for me diminish the processes.

Let’s call the whole thing off… and get on with the real business!

Absolutely.

 

[tonyrey]

I guess I just find that the word ‘futile’ conjurs up a very bleak image.

A purposeless universe must by its very nature be bleak because it is totally indifferent to human desires, values and ideals: our life becomes just a brief spark in the darkness of eternity, injustice is never rectified and death means utter extinction and eternal separation from all those we love…

I don’t believe that the universe serves a ‘higher purpose’, so in that context I suppose ‘futile’ is an adequate word.

And that leads to the bizarre view that purposes exist within a purposeless system…

You are not far wrong with your supposition that I am referring to human existence, but I would clarify and say that I am referring to subjective individual experience.

Then it is not man but the individual who is “the measure of all things” - at least from the aspect of values!

I personally think the universe, life etc. is totally awe-inspiring - from that pov I find the existence of everything to be intrinsically valuable to me personally, and I honestly believe I would find it massively less so if God were discovered to be the cause.

In that case your concept of God must be too limited because the immense power and wisdom required to design and create such a magnificent universe is totally beyond our comprehension - and inspires awe in the presence of the “mysterium tremendum et fascinans” (very well described in Rudolf Otto’s book “The Idea of the Holy”).

For me the wonder is that the laws of nature, evolution, and others that we haven’t yet discovered, have contrived to produce an orderly universe with incredible variety.

That is precisely why I find it incredible that the order, exquisite adaptation, harmony, joy and beauty in the universe have been produced by blind processes for no reason whatsoever.
To find that someone had ‘built’ it would be extremely disappointing because, remarkable though that feat would be, it would for me diminish the processes.Absolutely. In a way I can understand your disappointment because it would be less miraculous if God is responsible for Creation than irrational forces. In Hume’s words, the cause would not be proportioned to the effect. It seems ironic though that an atheist should opt for the greater miracle!

When you think of it the existence of anything is a miracle. Why something rather nothing???

 

[Fran65]

…the universe, life etc. is totally awe-inspiring - from that pov I find the existence of everything to be intrinsically valuable…

Hey, we agree on something!

 

[DaveBj]

I tend to agree with Elly’s father in Contact: “If it’s just us, it seems like an awful waste of space” (or words to that effect; I’m not sure of the exact quote).

On the other hand, it’s God’s space. If He wanted to create all that just to make us say “Wow!”, that’s His business.

DaveBj

 

[tonyrey]

I tend to agree with Elly’s father in Contact: “If it’s just us, it seems like an awful waste of space” (or words to that effect; I’m not sure of the exact quote).
On the other hand, it’s God’s space. If He wanted to create all that just to make us say “Wow!”, that’s His business.DaveBj

Judgments about the economical use of space and time in the universe presuppose expertise in the art of designing and creating systems which enable living organisms to exist and develop into rational beings. When a man succeeds in designing and creating a miniverse which fulfils these goals he will be justified in criticizing the one we inhabit …