Other possible understandings of Mortal Sin?

[Vico]

…
However, I wonder if we too readily equate this with the common understanding proposed by the Catechism, e.g., certain acts are grave in themselves, and committing these acts lend themselves to an automatic loss of the state of grace. …

That is not the actual teaching in the Catechism. There are acts and omissions which are grave matter but those may be one of two categories: material sin and actual sin. Sin must be voluntary to be an actual sin. The loss of grace is due voluntarily choosing that grave thing which is known to have sinful character, or it can be from chosen indifference.

Catechism

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. …

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent . It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin…

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

 

[Erikaspirit16]

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent . It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin…

Let’s take today as an example–Holy Day in the US, Feast of the Immaculate Conception. The priest announced it was a Holy Day of Obligation last week at Mass and it was in the bulletin. It was also on the electronic sign outside the church. No confusion.

So…1 Mass today, church about 1/3 full. Usually Sunday Masses (two of them) are 90-95% full. So where were the appox. 85% of people who were absent today but come to Mass on Sundays–and presumably will come to Mass tomorrow and receive Communion?

We could give almost innumerable other examples (birth control, stealing, cheating, lying at work, etc.) that the majority of Catholics participate in, presumably with a relatively clear conscience.

I know the Church is aware of this problem and working on it, but I’m not sure they fully understand the scope and implications of the problem. In any case, I think we have here a perfect example of what we have been discussing: something that in absolute terms is a mortal sin–missing Mass on a Holy Day–and yet something which approx. 85% of the Catholics–weekly practicing Catholics, mind you–dismiss as NOT a mortal sin. I’m not trying to defend one side or the other, I’m simply pointing out the problem.

 

[Richca]

I think it is possible to have an unhealthy understanding of mortal sin and its reality. I don’t think it is good to diminish the reality of mortal sin and of its potential corresponding punishment, namely, the eternity of hell. We can remind ourselves of the Four Last Things, namely, death, judgement, heaven, or hell. Everyone’s final and eternal destiny is either going to be heaven or hell. ‘In all you do, remember the end of your life, and then you will never sin’ (Sirach 7:36).

What are the percentages of the humans who go to heaven or hell? Or, those who die in the state of grace or in the state of mortal sin? Or, those who are living in the state of grace or in the state of mortal sin? We have no certain knowledge to the answers to these questions because we can’t look into a person’s soul as God sees it and form a certain judgement nor can we see as it were grace. However, there are objective signs of a person’s orientation or outlook on life such as whether a particular person is a habitual sinner without any intention of repentance or correcting themselves or not. Accordingly, we can make reasonable judgements from objective facts or appearances concerning a person’s life but of course God alone or Christ makes the final judgement as he alone can administer perfect justice.

We can look at what Holy Scripture tells us. During the days of Noah and the Flood, God destroyed the whole of humanity due to their wickedness but for Noah and his family. A grand total of eight were saved in the ark. Jesus reminds us concerning the end of the world,

‘As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man.
Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left.
Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left. Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming’ (Matt. 24: 37-42).

The prophets foretold the exile of the Israelites from the promised land due to their sins. They also foretold of a remnant that would be spared.

Jesus also says:
"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.
For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Matt. 7: 13-14).

 

[Richca]

Quote: RealisticCatholic

At least in my personal life, one result I see from the typical Catholic formulation of mortal sin is that I’m always worrying that I’m in the state of grace one week, in the state of mortal sin the next week, and back and forth and back and forth. While I believe this might be possible, this mentality just doesn’t seem quite right. I’m not blaming the teaching on mortal sin. But I wonder if we have the best formulation of it now.

I understand what your saying here because I often experience the same thing in my life although I don’t seem to worry over it much but maybe I should. I hope and trust in the Lord. I think I’m trying to keep his commandments though I fail at times and sometimes often it seems and I go to confession about once a month sometimes sooner. I’m not sure that if a person is trying and struggling, though as in my case probably not as good as I ought to be doing, and goes to confession regularly, that at the point of death, God is going to catch that person off guard so to speak such as being in a state of mortal sin and then sentence them to hell. I do wear both the Brown Scapular and Miraculous medals and trust in Mary’s protection. You present a pretty interesting question actually but I wonder if we might not be trying to rationalize away our faults.

A corollary of this may be the consideration of the doctrine of perfect contrition. If after one falls into a sin that is objectively grave in its matter and actually mortally sins, is it possible that acts of perfect contrition and their corresponding effects such as the restoration of sanctifying grace and charity are more common than what we might think? I don’t know. I’ve been on a few threads in the past here concerning perfect contrition and I would have to look up again what the Church teaches concerning perfect contrition as well as seeing what various theologians such as St Thomas Aquinas says on the matter. If my memory serves me correctly, I seem to recall some article from some priest I read where he wrote that acts of perfect contrition may be more common than we think. An act of perfect contrition as I said restores sanctifying grace and charity to the soul even before confessing in the sacrament of penance but it must include in it that one will go to confession soon at least to confess the sin/s in the sacrament.

For the sake of argument, suppose one applies the ‘fundamental option’ approach or something similar to your own case or mine. Instead of this approach, can we invoke acts of perfect contrition? I don’t know, I haven’t thought about it enough but maybe its worth considering. I mean, if the idea behind the fundamental option approach can hypothetically work, is there something to prevent acts of perfect contrition to be more common like? For the record, I’m not suggesting whatsoever that the fundamental option idea is valid. In Veritatas Spendor, St John Paul II teaches that the fundamental option idea is not compatible with the catholic faith, the Church’s moral theological Tradition that has been handed down to us, and the word of God in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent . It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin…

Let’s take today as an example–Holy Day in the US, Feast of the Immaculate Conception. The priest announced it was a Holy Day of Obligation last week at Mass and it was in the bulletin. It was also on the electronic sign outside the church. No confusion.

So…1 Mass today, church about 1/3 full. Usually Sunday Masses (two of them) are 90-95% full. So where were the appox. 85% of people who were absent today but come to Mass on Sundays–and presumably will come to Mass tomorrow and receive Communion?

We could give almost innumerable other examples (birth control, stealing, cheating, lying at work, etc.) that the majority of Catholics participate in, presumably with a relatively clear conscience.

I know the Church is aware of this problem and working on it, but I’m not sure they fully understand the scope and implications of the problem. In any case, I think we have here a perfect example of what we have been discussing: something that in absolute terms is a mortal sin–missing Mass on a Holy Day–and yet something which approx. 85% of the Catholics–weekly practicing Catholics, mind you–dismiss as NOT a mortal sin. I’m not trying to defend one side or the other, I’m simply pointing out the problem.

Friday evening is also ok for meeting the obligation. It is a serious obligation but is is not a mortal sin unless the other conditions for mortal sin are also met.

 

[Richca]

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The author here is correct concerning the three conditions that need to be met for a human act to be a mortal sin according to the teaching of the Church, the CCC, and what he calls the older theology. However, he appears to assume a simplistic understanding of the third condition, namely, the free deliberate consent that does not do justice to traditional moral theology including the teaching of St Thomas Aquinas. For example, the passions and sensual appetites can influence and alleviate the voluntariness of the will’s consent, not directly but indirectly, even to the point where the act is no longer voluntary such as in madmen, drunkeness, or people overcome by passionate love or anger. Accordingly, depending on the intensity of various passions and sensual appetites and their influence on the intellect and will, the will’s consent to an act that is mortal or grave in its object may constitute only a venial sin rather than a mortal sin even though condition 2 is met, namely, the person knows the act in question is grave and serious. The CCC also talks about the influence the passions can have on human acts. The passions and sensual appetites can indirectly lessen the voluntariness of the act of the free will and thus the gravity of a sinful act for voluntariness is essential for a human act to be either praiseworthy or blameworthy. The passions and sensual appetites can also influence the intellect and will in a good way such that a virtuous act is more intense.

 

[Mijoy2]

Something serious

You knew it was sin and you did it anyway.

But this is too easy. I emphasized the word knew here because - knowledge - is one component. Grave matter is another and I know you implicitly included that. But what about the 3rd component. “Full Consent”.

Some mortal sins (and there a few that come to mind often because of the nature of these sins as well as the frequent violations of these sins) are the ones people often think about when discussing this topic. So I will not ignore the elephant in the room. Missing Mass, self-gratification come to mine here. Murder, for example is another “mortal sin?”. But few reading this thread are probably confessing that sin on a regular basis.

So the confusion comes, when one commits one of these sins, say somewhat regularly, is (as I think what the OP might be getting to here) Does that individual fall in and out of their salvation on an equally regular basis?

Good question! I would argue that usually, the penitent, knows full well they will again succumb to temptation.
When they recite the Act-of_Contrition, in the back of their mind, they are likely already feeling guilty knowing that in a matter of time they will do the deed again. So guilt already reigns in when they say, “I firmly resolve with the help of Thy Grace…”.

Perhaps this is where Full Consent comes in. During a moment when the faith is weak (does God really exist? Will I really go to hell if I do this now? etc etc.) might it argued that the consent is compromised?

Difficult topic, when we discuss it with all honesty.

 

[MountCarmel]

To be mortally wounded infers that the result of that wound is death. In the case of mortal sin we have the spiritual death of the soul. Good news for that soul is that it can be resurrected by genuine and humble remorse to God, and in the case of we Catholics to avail ourselves of that tremendous gift for reconnecting our souls to life in/with God in Confession.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Notice that the Catechism uses the term “complete consent” and “sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice”.

Mortal sin does not require one to have a Phd in theology. The Catechism does state there are things which may diminish culpability, it is best for each of those to discuss such with our priest.

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent . It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

 

[Mijoy2]

I see what you are saying however when I contemplate this, especially in the manner it can be interpreted from CCC1859, and weigh it against reality, it pretty much states the vast majority (I’d suggest as much as high 90s to perhaps even greater than 99%) of us are damned to hell. And that is just referring to Catholics.

Maybe it is the engineer in me.

All rough (of the top of my head but I think they are ballpark).

Less than 33% of the world population are Catholic.
I realize this opens the door to an entire new discussion regarding Salvation outside the Church.
But none-the-less, they are clearly not going to Mass on Sunday. And most are committing other sins deemed mortally sinful by the Catholic Church.

Less than 10% of Catholics attend Mass regularly (I am pretty sure this is statistically accurate).

Of the 10% that do attend many (from personal experience so I will not put a number on it) :
Believe many of the things the Church teaches on sexual sin are not sinful (fornication before marriage, masturbation, homosexual activity…etc). I gather this through casual conversation with them.

This brings the number of Catholics alone who (without a special grace/pardon at the time of death), are by definition, damned.

I find (not you LittleLady - generally speaking), many Catholics via their interpretation of teachings such as CCC1859 do not leave any wiggle room. Yet the discussion is seldom taken to the next logical conclusion that, if this is so, nearly all (certainly the vast majority) are damned.

I realize that many devout Catholics only surround themselves with other devout Catholics. Therefore I’d argue that perhaps they are not doing the math in the same manner that I am here. They may have a limited world view.

The final logical conclusion I can draw from this is, how do we (the people who are intellectual honest and “do the math”) find any Joy in our Faith?

I’ve had this discussion before on these forums and I find people on these forums will dispute what I say but never with numbers.

Unless we are to believe that a pardon-at-death (last chance to accept Christ) is more the norm than the exception. Much less than 10% of Catholics, by these interpretations or mortal sin, die in a state of grace.

(I’d say less than 1%).

One question may put this into perspective.
A hypothetical Catholic who knows the Catholic Church teaches that not going to Mass on Holy Days of obligation and every Sunday is a mortal sin but is poorly Catechized and does not believe the Church has the power to make such a claim; Do they have Full Knowledge?

I think this hypothetical Catholic represents most Catholics. Or the pews would stuffed to the brim.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

My answer is that only God knows the heart of each of us. He knows if our ignorance is real or feigned.

 

[Richca]

We may succumb to temptations and fall even often into acts that are objectively grave and mortal in their nature, for example, sexual sins of thought, word, or deed. We may immediately feel remorse for doing so and we may or should make a sincere act of perfect contrition immediately or very soon. Assuming we committed a mortal sin and yet feel remorse and make a sincere act of perfect contrition right away or soon after, God is already operating in our soul by actual grace to repentance and leading us back to him even if we are not restored to sanctifying grace and charity immediately. As the Church teaches according to the word of God, we cannot do anything in the way of salvation without God’s prevenient grace. We may even offer up many ejaculations to God or Mary and pray our rosary, read the Bible, struggle to do better, all this before we get to confession to confess our sins. And doing all this requires God’s prevenient grace leading us to conversion and back to Him even if we are not restored to his grace until confession although it is quite possible we may be restored to his grace before confession. St Paul says " And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:6). If we fall into mortal sin, are remorseful, and immediately or soon after make a sincere act of perfect contrition, God has already begun a good work in us by his grace leading us to repentance and Paul says that he is sure that God will bring it to completion, i.e., to the restoration of sanctifying grace, charity, and the salvation of our souls.

 

[Richca]

(cont.)

St John Vianney, the Cure of Ars, said ‘God is quicker to forgive than a mother to snatch her child from the fire’. Do we not experience this? We may fall into serious sin even often and yet immediately ask God to forgive us which we could only do by his prevenient grace. We may even recite an Our Father in which we ask God to ‘forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us’. If we sincerely recite this prayer which God is giving us the grace to do so, I think it makes sense that God will forgive us our sins if we ask Him to do so and wants to forgive us even before we ask Him by giving us the grace to even petition him to forgive us. We should add that true contrition at least for catholics in relation to grave and serious faults includes the intention that we will confess our sins in the sacrament of penance for this is Christ’s will for us. The grace that God gives us after committing a serious fault and in which we ask forgiveness even before we go to confession will include the intention to go to confession if we truly cooperate with God’s grace.

I’m not here trying to determine whether or not we actually commit a mortal sin when we commit a grave and serious fault in its object. Nor inquiring into the time we may be restored to grace after committing a mortal sin such as before confession or at confession. At present, I’m simply stating some truths of our faith, factual observations, and observations from my own experience which other people can probably relate too which I think are quite interesting in relation to the OP. I mean it is obvious in relation to the sacrament of Penance that a person who is on their way to the Church or in line for confession is receiving grace from God to go to confession and cooperating with that grace. Just as the Church teaches that there is baptism of desire, there is also sacrament of penance of desire. We should consider too that penance is a virtue which has three parts, namely, contrition, confession, and satisfaction.

We can also bring into this discussion our Blessed Mother Mary, the Mediatrix of all graces who is always ready to give us the grace of contrition, penance, or repentance before we ask of it. Indeed, as I said, God’s grace of repentance precedes our repentance. In relation to this, I recall reading from St Maximilian Kolbe something like that if we fall into serious sin try not to become depressed for that is from the devil but immediately ask God and our Blessed Mother for forgiveness and continue on your way with a joyful heart knowing that God and Mary have forgiven you even before you ask forgiveness in the sense that it takes God’s prevenient grace to even ask for forgiveness. And consider what St John Vianney said which I mentioned at the beginning of this post concerning a mother snatching her child from the fire. Mary is the best of all mothers and she is vehemently eager to snatch her children from the fires of hell. God is both infinitely just and infinitely merciful. The saints say that Jesus has handed over to Mary, the Mother of Mercy, the administration of his mercy but has reserved for himself the administration of his justice.