Ouija board working a fact?

[carn]

Well, you seem to think YOU know everything!

The stuff behind “assuming” is not knowledge, but guesswork.

Otherwise, feel free to point out logical errors. Or accept that i presented a rather good argument that ynotzaps claim, science is in principle unable to find empirical evidence of supernatural beings, is rather likely wrong.

Science can find empirical evidence for anything that influences material world in a reliable manner. Most claims about supernatural beings claim that such beings can manipulate material world (e.g. demons are supposed to move that pointer on the quija board independent upon human action). Hence, if they do this in a reliable manner, science could find evidence. If they do not do it in a reliable manner, science can’t. As science cannot find evidence, they either do not exist or are unwilling and/or unable to do it in a reliable manner

 

[esieffe]

The success of the test bring about the demons.
It is not possible to have a safe test in this case.

 

[esieffe]

What did he do wrong (just if you think its unproblematic to share the details)?

I would suspect demons yearning for doing harm would not mind much whether some detail is correct, they would grab any chance to do harm.

I would feel like I was, contributing to evil if I said. The only reason I mentioned it, was to explain why he was so frivolous with his opening invitation. He wasn’t expecting for it to work this time. I however was not so sure. When I was a teen, these things interested me I am sorry to admit. They don’t interest me at all now. Now I frantically wave the warning flag whenever the topic comes up.

As to your second thought, I don’t know. Maybe you have to stir the pot just so to let the “cat out of the bag” so to speak.

 

[ynotzap]

That is incorrect. Science could easily find evidence that at least some spiritual entities exist, if the spiritual entities are willing to cooperate to achieve the goal of acquiring empirical evidence of their existence.

Think of it this way, assume that a scientist had the hypotheses:

1. God does not exist.
2. No supernatural power or entities exist in any way.

Now further assume that 1. is untrue and God exists. If God wanted he could help the scientist at once to find empirical evidence that 2. is untrue. He would just have to tell him “Whenever you touch a human no longer dead than 7 days and with all major body parts present and ask me loud to bring him bakc to life, it will be done. Use this to demonstrate all your fellow scientist, that something supernatural must exist.” Scientist grabs his colleagues, they are off to the next morgue and he repeats it as often as necessary that all natural explanations can be excluded (which would not be very often, actually once bringing a human dead since 7 days beck to life under close observation would be enough), empirical evidence exists that 2. must be untrue.

The only possible reasons, why science has not found empirical evidence of supernatural entities or God?
a. they do not exist
OR
b. they do not want or are for unknown reasons unable to provide the empirical evidence

(BTW, thats my own experience with people claiming to be in contact with supernatural entities - whenever i suggested a simple test to prove their existence, people claimed that the supernatural entities see no reason why they should cooperate.)

Assuming catholicism is right about the existence of God, angels, demons and the devil, then at least God is unwilling to provide empirical evidence (being unable not being an option for Him) and angels, demons and the devil either unwilling or unable. The further conclusion would be, that since God is supposed to do everything in favor of our salvation, that He is of the opinion that lacking empirical evidence of His existence is better for our salvation than having empirical evidence. Reminds me of “Blessed are they that have not seen and yet have believed.” (assuming seen = empirical evidence is valid interpretation)

As having evidence of angels, demons or the devil would also constitute something close to existence of God (if those catholics got the angel, demon and devil thing right, their God hypotheses is suddenly rather plausible), it would be no surprise if God would order/force angels, demons and devil to also avoid providing empirical evidence.

I have to agree and disagree with some of your comments Not being adept at using the wrap around features for quotations, I have to generalize, and hopefully answer some statement in the process.

Empirical scientists are unable to demonstrate by experiment spiritual realities and the reasons are obvious, they are based on experiment and and observation, and matter, this is their limit, rather than theory, or spiritual. One can check the Archives of the Catholic Church and find many scientific validations of miracles, also one can find the testimony of Exorcists. So there is real evidence for spiritual phenomena

We must understand this comes under the heading of Christian faith, not science. Science will never be the savior of mankind, this belongs to Jesus Christ alone It was through faith in Jesus that the world received salvation, saved from the works of demons. such as hatred, wars, greed, murder, lies, selfishness, pride, cowardice, laziness, intemperance, ignorance, lust, to mention some. Science does not work with spiritual problems, these are problems of man’s moral and irrational actions in his conduct, and they are identified as spiritual problems, not material problems Science can advance in technology but what good is that if it in the hands of people with irrational and immoral behavior, it like handing a child a loaded gun to play with. There is no civil advancement, take a good look at whats going on in the world, if that doesn’t convince us nothing will.

These fallen angel, or demons where defeated by Christ when He offered His innocent life , the price of redemption for mankind. His was not a fight against men, but against these forces. If these forces made themselves known, their existence would validate the existence of Jesus Christ, and their purpose of deceit is to cloud this truth to counter the salvation of men. They are condemned to eternal frustration knowing full well they could never defeat God, but they still know that they might have a chance to gain the souls of some. They can also take on human form, and cause a lot of spiritual manifestations, and their identities remain hidden.

When you are dealing with spiritual entities, you are involved necessarily in matter of Christian faith, with Jesus Christ, with history and reality. Science and human endeavor will never solve the real problems of mankind. History show this from the time of Adam.

We must become humble and admit our total dependence of God, manifested in Jesus Christ God-man, this is the ultimate truth. Some of us know it, and many of us don’t that’s why there is such a great need for evangelization, the “Good News” otherwise we are talking around the problem, and not answering it.

 

[HillsongUnited]

The stuff behind “assuming” is not knowledge, but guesswork.

Otherwise, feel free to point out logical errors. Or accept that i presented a rather good argument that ynotzaps claim, science is in principle unable to find empirical evidence of supernatural beings, is rather likely wrong.

Science can find empirical evidence for anything that influences material world in a reliable manner. Most claims about supernatural beings claim that such beings can manipulate material world (e.g. demons are supposed to move that pointer on the quija board independent upon human action). Hence, if they do this in a reliable manner, science could find evidence. If they do not do it in a reliable manner, science can’t. As science cannot find evidence, they either do not exist or are unwilling and/or unable to do it in a reliable manner

Demons/spirits are not going to reliably mess around each time with someone who’s using a ouija board because their goal is to draw people away from God. If a demon presented itself every time, it would most likely lead people to believe in God because they would be aware of the other side. Remember, the greatest trick the Devil ever played was pretending he never existed. Also, they are not going to come at your bidding. They’re crafty beings and play accordingly.

I know that for some people, like yourself, personal testimonies hold no weight, but most of what we learn from school are just personal testimonies. I’ve been in research for years now (bio/chem.) and most of what we “know” is just speculation and/or even hype. I can guarantee you that 87% of what’s published (yes, peer-reviewed research articles) are deeply flawed and hyped. I’m in no way bashing the scientific method because the Cathoilc church itself has used it, and I use it for work nearly everyday, but I caution you against Scientism. Basically, the philosophy that science has the answers for everything. If it did, how would you go about testing that statement? Can science answer whether or not someone should go to war?
Anyway, I digress. The supernatural stuff in my life have not been limited to the incidents with the ouija board in fact. I would say that most people who have experienced something supernatural did not come in contact with a ouija board. Also note that not all supernatural experiences are necessarily evil. I believe most people have had brushes with the good sort. Luckily for us Catholics, we do have proof of miracles and although we don’t need them for our faith in God, it is a nice perk. Anyway, I don’t want to start a debate or anything with you, but I just wanted to put in my two-cents for other viewers of this thread. If this post could help other Catholics/Christians/Believers/seekers of faith then I hope this helps.

So with that, peace! I’m out:thumbsup::harp:

 

[HillsongUnited]

I have to agree and disagree with some of your comments Not being adept at using the wrap around features for quotations, I have to generalize, and hopefully answer some statement in the process.

Empirical scientists are unable to demonstrate by experiment spiritual realities and the reasons are obvious, they are based on experiment and and observation, and matter, this is their limit, rather than theory, or spiritual. One can check the Archives of the Catholic Church and find many scientific validations of miracles, also one can find the testimony of Exorcists. So there is real evidence for spiritual phenomena

We must understand this comes under the heading of Christian faith, not science. Science will never be the savior of mankind, this belongs to Jesus Christ alone It was through faith in Jesus that the world received salvation, saved from the works of demons. such as hatred, wars, greed, murder, lies, selfishness, pride, cowardice, laziness, intemperance, ignorance, lust, to mention some. Science does not work with spiritual problems, these are problems of man’s moral and irrational actions in his conduct, and they are identified as spiritual problems, not material problems Science can advance in technology but what good is that if it in the hands of people with irrational and immoral behavior, it like handing a child a loaded gun to play with. There is no civil advancement, take a good look at whats going on in the world, if that doesn’t convince us nothing will.

These fallen angel, or demons where defeated by Christ when He offered His innocent life , the price of redemption for mankind. His was not a fight against men, but against these forces. If these forces made themselves known, their existence would validate the existence of Jesus Christ, and their purpose of deceit is to cloud this truth to counter the salvation of men. They are condemned to eternal frustration knowing full well they could never defeat God, but they still know that they might have a chance to gain the souls of some. They can also take on human form, and cause a lot of spiritual manifestations, and their identities remain hidden.

When you are dealing with spiritual entities, you are involved necessarily in matter of Christian faith, with Jesus Christ, with history and reality. Science and human endeavor will never solve the real problems of mankind. History show this from the time of Adam.

We must become humble and admit our total dependence of God, manifested in Jesus Christ God-man, this is the ultimate truth. Some of us know it, and many of us don’t that’s why there is such a great need for evangelization, the “Good News” otherwise we are talking around the problem, and not answering it.

 

[mikekle]

These fallen angel, or demons where defeated by Christ when He offered His innocent life , the price of redemption for mankind. His was not a fight against men, but against these forces. If these forces made themselves known, their existence would validate the existence of Jesus Christ, and their purpose of deceit is to cloud this truth to counter the salvation of men. They are condemned to eternal frustration knowing full well they could never defeat God, but they still know that they might have a chance to gain the souls of some.

Have you ever wondered what would happen if Satan were able to ‘win over’ more souls that God was able to then the end comes?

Ive wondered about this alot, since the bible does tell us not that many will make it to heaven, and if you look at the modern world, its pretty clear Satan is winning over ALOT of souls…Now to me, this kind of looks like Satan is ‘winning’ and if he were to win over a very large majority of souls versus God…that obviously is extremely important!

I assume when the end comes, and Satan HAS won over or managed to turn the majority of people away from God, this will be VERY serious, but not sure what would happen…I mean, this would be serious blow to God and the faith itself, if the large majority of his creations turn away from him and instead side with the enemy…???

Is there any religious writings, statements, or bible verses that reference this and what would happen if such a thing were to end up being true?

 

[carn]

Demons/spirits are not going to reliably mess around each time with someone who’s using a ouija board because their goal is to draw people away from God. If a demon presented itself every time, it would most likely lead people to believe in God because they would be aware of the other side. Remember, the greatest trick the Devil ever played was pretending he never existed. Also, they are not going to come at your bidding. They’re crafty beings and play accordingly.

Therefore i said, that science is not in principle unable to find empirical evidence for supernatural beings. Science would be able to find empirical evidence for cooperative supernatural beings and it would be able to find empirical evidence for semi-intelligent, careless or otherwise mentally sufficiently limited supernatural beings (cause they would make errors while trying to avoid causing evidence, which would be enough to get them).

Science is unable to find empirical evidence for uncooperative and sufficiently intelligent or clever supernatural beings.

So only some types of supernatural beings are excluded.

And this is therefore important, because although catholics do not claim the existence of “dumb” supernatural beings, a lot of other groups claim the existence of “dumb” supernatural beings. E.g. wiccas claim there exist spirits of some sort and these spirits are not claimed to be cunning far beyond human standards, hence science should be able to find evdence of their activity.

 

[MtnDwellar]

Have you ever wondered what would happen if Satan were able to ‘win over’ more souls that God was able to then the end comes?

Ive wondered about this alot, since the bible does tell us not that many will make it to heaven, and if you look at the modern world, its pretty clear Satan is winning over ALOT of souls…Now to me, this kind of looks like Satan is ‘winning’ and if he were to win over a very large majority of souls versus God…that obviously is extremely important!

I assume when the end comes, and Satan HAS won over or managed to turn the majority of people away from God, this will be VERY serious, but not sure what would happen…I mean, this would be serious blow to God and the faith itself, if the large majority of his creations turn away from him and instead side with the enemy…???

Is there any religious writings, statements, or bible verses that reference this and what would happen if such a thing were to end up being true?

The numbers do not change the outcome. It’s not a contest.

 

[ynotzap]

Have you ever wondered what would happen if Satan were able to ‘win over’ more souls that God was able to then the end comes?

Ive wondered about this alot, since the bible does tell us not that many will make it to heaven, and if you look at the modern world, its pretty clear Satan is winning over ALOT of souls…Now to me, this kind of looks like Satan is ‘winning’ and if he were to win over a very large majority of souls versus God…that obviously is extremely important!

I assume when the end comes, and Satan HAS won over or managed to turn the majority of people away from God, this will be VERY serious, but not sure what would happen…I mean, this would be serious blow to God and the faith itself, if the large majority of his creations turn away from him and instead side with the enemy…???

Is there any religious writings, statements, or bible verses that reference this and what would happen if such a thing were to end up being true?

Rom 5; 20 “The law entered in so that transgressions might increase but,where sin increased; grace overflows all the more, so that as sin reigned in death, grace also might also reign through justification for eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Read all of Rom;5 Where sin abounds grace abounds even more, so there is eternal hope for mankind. The squeeky hinge gets the most oil (attention), and the devil makes a lot of noise. With God there is no contest. If a person winds up in Hell, he has rejected all help from God and convicts himself. To use free will with the guidance of truth is so crucial to one’s true happiness even here on earth, let alone hereafter.

 

[mikekle]

The numbers do not change the outcome. It’s not a contest.

Still, it must be disappointing if the majority of your creations choose the enemy, instead of their creator.

 

[MtnDwellar]

Still, it must be disappointing if the majority of your creations choose the enemy, instead of their creator.

I think if a deity is all knowing and all powerful, it is impossible to disappoint Him.

 

[MJCamp]

My opinion is that a Ouija board is just that, a piece of inert wood, or now a piece of cheap particle board. It has no power for good or evil in and of itself. It is the people touching the table that cause it to move. The only time the pointer table will move ‘by itself’’ is if it is sitting on the knees of those playing with the board.

The evil in the ‘game’ is that people may believe they are getting information from beyond, more often from sinister powers than powers for good. It is that person who then looks for other entrys into the occult who can get into trouble spiritually and mentally.

Many people buys these things for their children for a lark. Usually it doesn’t take children long to realize that one or the other of the members playing is directing the outcome of the message and the board is relegated to the toy box or the trash.

This could possibly be the case majority of the time, however, I can confirm that Ouija Boards can be used to summon spirits. I have done so myself when I was in college. Ouija boards are not to be played around with and are spiritually dangerous. They are very real!!!

 

[ynotzap]

I can verify that evil spirits do cause motion on the quija board, and can be expelled by the use of the Name of Jesus Christ. I have been exposed to several paranormal activities involving the evil spirits and their expulsion Evil spirits are none other than fallen angels, rebellious spirits with Satan as their leader. Jesus came to destroy his works- St.Peter.
The board has no power as stated, but if people can be deceived into thinking it has, they expose themselves to the danger of offending God, who said, Thou shalt not have any false gods before me. By believing in the board to foretell the future, or to answer questions would be to assign divine power to material things, false gods. The devil desires to mislead, and deceive people from knowing the truth.

 

[mikekle]

Its strange that the catholic church has not tried some way to get this taken out of stores…Ive never even heard any arguments/ debates about it…?? I would have thought there would be lots of christians either writing letters to the stores, the manufacturers, etc anything to attempt to get these things out of stores.

Its quite disappointing to see so many people not believe in such things, just goes to show you how successful satan is in the modern world…he has certainly fooled alot of smart christian people!

 

[JackQ]

I read this question and answer from catholic.com:
catholic.com/quickquestions/are-ouija-boards-harmless

“The fact of the matter is, the Ouija board really does work”

A quija board, for those who do not know, is a board with letters, numbers and yes/no symbols on it. People using it place a moveable object as marker on it, e.g. an upturned glass, touch it with their fingers very lightly (normally several people touch the obejct from several sides) and call some entities, ghost, demons or whatever the specific goup thiinks they might be able to contact. They then ask questions and the marker moves to spell out the answer or yes/no.

Sometimes also people do not touch it and it still moves.

The point now is that as most of the time someone is touching the marker or at least several people are near the board and the marker and normally relativ dark conditions, one cannot know whether the marker moves through some supernatural effect or whether the participants move it either subconciously by gently pushing it or pushing the board/table or with deliberate deception, e.g. its a magnetic marker and one participant uses a magnet to guide its movements.

Therefore one cannot know, whether the participants realy contact some entities or whether they just fool themselves into thinking they do.

At least thats what i think so far. (And i think its irrelevant, whether i think i contact demons or whether i actually contact demons, both carries dangers.)

The above answer seems to imply that its fact that Quija boards allow contact to demons.

Anyone know how it can be established as a fact?

It seems in the above link, it is considered fact due to testimonies of excorcists. But is there any further evidence?

I suppose it depends on what you mean by “works.” Even if it is a direct tool of the devil, the devil doesn’t have all knowledge.

Even though it seems like Ouija boards were introduced as a kind of snake oil by a businessman near the end of the 19th century, and was originally a kind of parlor game, something like that can be easily turned for evil because of the way people relate to it. Either way, I can’t think of a good reason to participate in it.

 

[Midwest88]

I just discovered “Charlie, Charlie” (I’ve behind the times here haha!) and it reminded me of the “Bloody Mary” game. As with both of these mentioned games, Ouija goes along the same lines. It’s purely psychological. “Charlie, Charlie,” depending on what version you play, is a trick; “Bloody Mary” plays on your psyche as you’re in the darken bathroom; Ouija plays on your heightened anxiety. It’s fake. It’s fun. But it’s not harmless, though not because of “the demons.” It’s harmful because it’ll make you fearful and paranoid of things that aren’t there.

 

[edwest2]

Ouija boards involve contacting unknown entities. It doesn’t matter if some think it’s real or not, it is a tool of disbelief: that something other than God is important. It can involve divination or a type of fortune-telling. It should be totally avoided because it will invite evil spirits and have negative spiritual effects. The spirits will not say, “Hi. We’re evil spirits.” They will hide behind false but pleasant sounding names and try to convince you to trust them because they can “help” you.

Ouija is not a game.

Ed

 

[MJCamp]

Ouija boards involve contacting unknown entities. It doesn’t matter if some think it’s real or not, it is a tool of disbelief: that something other than God is important. It can involve divination or a type of fortune-telling. It should be totally avoided because it will invite evil spirits and have negative spiritual effects. The spirits will not say, “Hi. We’re evil spirits.” They will hide behind false but pleasant sounding names and try to convince you to trust them because they can “help” you.

Ouija is not a game.

Ed

All this is correct. Ouija boards are dangerous to the soul

 

[SilverLight]

All this is correct. Ouija boards are dangerous to the soul

My Dad had one as a kid and him and his mother used it a few times. Nothing happened and he is fine to this day. Then again that was the kind you can get at a Target or toy store. If demons are using that to get here then they are using cheap materials to do it.