Ouija board working a fact?

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The above answer seems to imply that its fact that Quija boards allow contact to demons.

Anyone know how it can be established as a fact?
While there may or may not be a “spirit world”, I’m really surprised anyone would fall for Ouija boards contacting it.

The Ouija board was invented in the nineteenth century as a novelty game. The name Ouija was dreamed up to market the game, and currently the Hasbro toy company owns the trademark. You can buy the game from Toys ‘R Us for about twenty dollars.

The game relies on the well established but little known fact that even when no player is cheating, we make movements unconsciously, giving us the illusion of some external agency. It’s very easy to debunk any supposed paranormal involvement - blindfold all the players and once they can no longer see the letters the “answers” will be unintelligible.

skepdic.com/ouija.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouija
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_effect
 
The game relies on the well established but little known fact that even when no player is cheating, we make movements unconsciously, giving us the illusion of some external agency. It’s very easy to debunk any supposed paranormal involvement - blindfold all the players and once they can no longer see the letters the “answers” will be unintelligible.

skepdic.com/ouija.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouija
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_effect
I am aware of this and this is the reason, why “the excocists say so” is not convincing. To exclude the possibility of self-deception or fraud, one would have to watch such a ritual as a neutral non-interfering observer. And i cannot imgaine excorcists standing next to a quija group waiting to see whether or not some demon starts to effect things.
 
Ok, then it seems the issue is about what is a “fact”.
I consider things fact, if they can be proven in ways that satisfy a scientific community of non-believers or anyone else willing to look at evidence. (Note that it is not the other way round, things a scientific community of non-believers considers to be proven by evidence is not always a fact. But if something is considered a fact, prove should be possible.)

So it seems that in the linked question/answer fact is used differently.

@regarding using a board

I do not intend to use a board. But i try to make sense of a few things and one of them is that if magic/spirits/demons/other supernatural things exist, there must be a reason why so far no one collected a million bucks. randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

If quija boards work in the sense that through some procedure a supernatural movement of the marker would result, one would get 1 million or slightly more. That a catholic would not do it, is obvious. But if the occult followers simply think it to be a tool of power, then they have no reason not to get 1 million - demons would certainly not mind their followers being greedy. And they would not need to disclose their “knowledge” about this power, as the people offering the challenge do not care, what your ideas behind your claim are. They would be satisfied with a marker reliably moving without trickery.

And, while i did not have contact with boards, i had contact with some people, who were convinced about the existance and possibility to contact ghosts. But whenever i got curious and suggested to make some test verifying the existance of their ghost contact, the ghost seemed to run away and it was not possible.

(Of course this question applies to all other supposed supernatural activity.)
You are raising a question that I have pondered. Let’s assume that Ouija Boards and other phenomena are real… Let’s include supernatural phenomena such as miracles of healing, apparitions, and others. This is not a wild assumption considering that millions of people believe in them. The Church has approved of them. We can find millions of eye witnesses. Photographs are abundant. Etc.

And yet, conclusive evidence is not available. We still have a large segment of the population that denies these occurrences. Skeptics produce theories that can refute the Miracle of the Sun at Fatima. Others believe that the stigmata of Saint Padre Pio was self inflicted. Even when an event seems to defy natural explanations, skeptics can find a way to attribute “yet to be understood” physical causes.

Why is there never an instance which is completely undeniable to the world? Does God want to always leave room for faith? Does Satan have the motivation and the means to always cloud supernatural events? Are some people so naturally adverse to believing in anything unseen that they will always find an alternative explanation?
 
**Are some people so naturally adverse to believing in anything unseen that they will always find an alternative explanation? **

The answer to that is emphatically YES.
 
I am aware of this and this is the reason, why “the excocists say so” is not convincing. To exclude the possibility of self-deception or fraud, one would have to watch such a ritual as a neutral non-interfering observer. And i cannot imgaine excorcists standing next to a quija group waiting to see whether or not some demon starts to effect things.
Yes, it’s very rare that anything can be conclusively proven to skeptics, especially those who by nature are highly skeptical of natural explanations. You could always have them safely watch the game from a secret location live on Skype - unless they’re frightened that modern-day spirits can hack Internet packets in real time. 😃

Personally, I’d be happy to play it in the middle of a graveyard on Friday 13th after breaking a mirror and getting a black cat to cross my path, but then I also don’t believe that animals can talk at midnight on Christmas Eve, or that a sailor wearing an earring can’t drown, or that stepping on cracks in the sidewalk is bad luck, etc. To me it’s better to be free than get enslaved by any of these zillion superstitions.
 
Thank you; I have ordered a copy.

God Bless.
Greetings Leegal,

Glad to have been of assistance. I would be interetested in knowing what you think of the book after you have read it. Feel free to send me a Personal Message.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
 
Feel Better 🙂
Greetings MtnDwellar,

Thank you my friend. I am feeling better, no fever the last few days. Just weak and tired from it. I am on the mend, albeilt, slowly for sure. 🙂

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
 
While there may or may not be a “spirit world”, I’m really surprised anyone would fall for Ouija boards contacting it.

The Ouija board was invented in the nineteenth century as a novelty game. The name Ouija was dreamed up to market the game, and currently the Hasbro toy company owns the trademark. You can buy the game from Toys ‘R Us for about twenty dollars.

The game relies on the well established but little known fact that even when no player is cheating, we make movements unconsciously, giving us the illusion of some external agency. It’s very easy to debunk any supposed paranormal involvement - blindfold all the players and once they can no longer see the letters the “answers” will be unintelligible.

skepdic.com/ouija.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouija
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_effect
Greetings Inocente,

Forgive my curiosity, but I could not help but wonder what the ecclesiastical community of Baptists teach on demons and the spirit world? Does that community also teach that it is wrong to use the Ouija board. Most ecclesiastical communites of Baptists I know condemn the use of the board as well.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
 
Does God want to always leave room for faith?
He has to, otherwise we could not be saved, as we would not heed His will because of a desire to be good but solely out of a desire to avoid punishment.
Does Satan have the motivation and the means to always cloud supernatural events?
The other side is, where it does not add up. If spells, magic and occult would realy give their followers actual power and not imagined, it would be far more attractive to many people.
Are some people so naturally adverse to believing in anything unseen that they will always find an alternative explanation?
No.

Or are there people trying to find an alternative explanation to what happened in Hiroshima on 6th of August, 1945?

The chain reaction is completly invisible to human eyes and yet no sane person in the world doubts that it somehow functions. If demons could realiably give power to wreak serious havoc, we would be just aware of it, as we are aware of the power of nuclear bombs, gunpowder and other means of destruction.

Point is, what man can tap on reliably, he turns into a weapon. As demon invocation is no known tactic or strategy except in psychological sense (calls to a certain god to help in battle), i can only conclude that demons as far as they exist and influence this world do it mostly or exclusively by influencing humans.
 
The game relies on the well established but little known fact that even when no player is cheating, we make movements unconsciously, giving us the illusion of some external agency. It’s very easy to debunk any supposed paranormal involvement - blindfold all the players and once they can no longer see the letters the “answers” will be unintelligible.

skepdic.com/ouija.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouija
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideomotor_effect
Yeah, I don’t understand why anyone would fall for that nonsensical ****. No invoking of demons as explanation necessary. I don’t believe in UFOs and Pentawater either. Belief in God is the only thing rational to me.
 
Forgive my curiosity, but I could not help but wonder what the ecclesiastical community of Baptists teach on demons and the spirit world? Does that community also teach that it is wrong to use the Ouija board. Most ecclesiastical communites of Baptists I know condemn the use of the board as well.
Hi, Anathama Sit.

One of the founding principles of Baptists is we must all be free to make up our own minds, so just about the only common factor that can (hopefully :)) be relied on is trust in Christ.

Demons, the spirit world and the paranormal in general are viewed as new age nonsense in all the house groups and churches I’ve encountered, although I guess there are those who take a different line.

For me personally, it is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery (Gal 5:1). Therefore any belief which tends to enslave us cannot possibly be from God, whether it’s thinking Ouija drums up demons, cooties is a real infection, or obsessively washing our hands fifty times a day.
 
Greetings Inocente,

Forgive me, I have some more questions. Thank you for your last response.
Hi, Anathama Sit.

One of the founding principles of Baptists is we must all be free to make up our own minds, so just about the only common factor that can (hopefully :)) be relied on is trust in Christ.
So what if someone wants to decide that what all that Jesus did and taught was not true? Does this not lead to chaos? If everyone is free to believe what they want to based upon what they want to make their mind up on, how can this be of benefit? What if someone decides to believe in a lie that is contrary to what the Ecclesial community of the Baptists teaches?
Demons, the spirit world and the paranormal in general are viewed as new age nonsense in all the house groups and churches I’ve encountered, although I guess there are those who take a different line.
I can understand that, but when the preternatural happens in their lives then what? What consolations can the Ecclesial community of the Baptists offer to them? I have a question, did not Jesus deal with demons in the Bible? Or were these just simply imaginations that Jesus dealt with them? He cast them out. So if there were demons in the bible did they disappear? Where did they go?
For me personally, it is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery (Gal 5:1). Therefore any belief which tends to enslave us cannot possibly be from God, whether it’s thinking Ouija drums up demons, cooties is a real infection, or obsessively washing our hands fifty times a day.
SO this is your personal belief and not the belief of other Baptists? What do you do when you get conflicting beliefs?

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
 
So what if someone wants to decide that what all that Jesus did and taught was not true? Does this not lead to chaos? If everyone is free to believe what they want to based upon what they want to make their mind up on, how can this be of benefit? What if someone decides to believe in a lie that is contrary to what the Ecclesial community of the Baptists teaches?
You can only join a church if the church accepts you, and the church will only invite those who have accepted Christ.
I can understand that, but when the preternatural happens in their lives then what? What consolations can the Ecclesial community of the Baptists offer to them? I have a question, did not Jesus deal with demons in the Bible? Or were these just simply imaginations that Jesus dealt with them? He cast them out. So if there were demons in the bible did they disappear? Where did they go?
:confused: When you hit your thumb with a hammer, I can’t see how saying that it was the dreaded hammer-demon is any consolation. Or try telling a judge that you should be let off because a velocity-demon made you drive too fast.

When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick (Matt 8:16). Look around – do you see many who are demon-possessed, I don’t see any at all. I think scripture talks of demons instead of the modern psychiatric parlance of OCD, PTSD and so on.
SO this is your personal belief and not the belief of other Baptists? What do you do when you get conflicting beliefs?
We believe in a living God and a living scripture, Catholics I think believe the same. When Catholics have different ideas they discuss it, potentially here on CAF, and we do similar. 🙂
 
Greetings Inocente,

Thanks for your responses.
You can only join a church if the church accepts you, and the church will only invite those who have accepted Christ.
So by this answer then once cannot choose what one wants to believe. They must somehow believe in what the ecclesial community believes in at the least.
:confused: When you hit your thumb with a hammer, I can’t see how saying that it was the dreaded hammer-demon is any consolation. Or try telling a judge that you should be let off because a velocity-demon made you drive too fast.

When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick (Matt 8:16). Look around – do you see many who are demon-possessed, I don’t see any at all. I think scripture talks of demons instead of the modern psychiatric parlance of OCD, PTSD and so on.
So what about the people who think and believe that these demons were literal? Are their beliefs wrong? Becuase you did state that everyone is free to believe what their own mind makes up. How can both opposing views be both right. Either demons exist or they do not exist. Someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong.
We believe in a living God and a living scripture, Catholics I think believe the same. When Catholics have different ideas they discuss it, potentially here on CAF, and we do similar. 🙂
I can agree with you on that we believe in a living God and a living Scripture, but Catholics believe in much more.

God Bless.
Anathama Sit
 
So by this answer then once cannot choose what one wants to believe. They must somehow believe in what the ecclesial community believes in at the least.
No, we believe everyone must be free to choose their religion. But anyone who wants to join a Baptist church must accept Christ as her savior.
So what about the people who think and believe that these demons were literal? Are their beliefs wrong? Becuase you did state that everyone is free to believe what their own mind makes up. How can both opposing views be both right. Either demons exist or they do not exist. Someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong.
I don’t recall saying everyone is free to believe “what their own mind makes up” :D. More like everyone is competent to approach God according to their own conscience.

In my own experience the subject of demons has come up the same number of times as invisible pink unicorns, i.e. never, because if no one believes in them then no one is going to be interested in talking about them. But more generally, Republicans and Democrats can’t both be correct yet it doesn’t stop them getting along.
I can agree with you on that we believe in a living God and a living Scripture, but Catholics believe in much more.
I believe less is more. 🙂
 
Grace & Peace!
If spells, magic and occult would realy give their followers actual power and not imagined, it would be far more attractive to many people.
Carn, I’ve done some research into this area (not practical research, mind you!), and the situation is not as cut and dried as you might think.

First–occultism requires a discipline that is not unlike the discipline any religion worth the name demands of its adherents. Sometimes, even more so. The more pious grimoires give some very taxing regimens for what is needed in order for a ritual to “work.” Sometimes what is needed is years of preparation. Sometimes, all you need are a number of months in a highly secluded place where you will read nothing but the psalms, eat bread and water, wear specially consecrated garments, and have no contact with anyone until the ritual (performed at a certain time of year under optimal astrological conditions) is complete. Many people find it hard to commit to going to Mass every Sunday. Adding an occult discipline to the mix is simply beyond most people’s capacity.

Second–the power that an occultist is presumed to possess is not the stuff of Hollywood special effects. The appeal to spirits that comprise most occult rites are not designed to allow you to throw fireballs, but are designed to enable the Operator to pull the strings of the universe behind the scenes. The worldview of most grimoires is an extremely Platonic one and is best encapsulated in a small text called The Emerald Tablet which states, basically: as above, so below. By manipulating objects and things in the physical realm which are in sympathy with principles, ideas and intelligences in the spiritual realm, one can influence the physical realm to a greater or lesser degree. By appealing to an archangel through the power of a particular name of God, it is believed that the services of the angels under that archangel can be used to coerce lesser spirits into doing the Operator’s bidding, very much in line with the old magical goal: to rule with all Heaven and to be served by all Hell.

Third–Many contemporary magicians, after Aleister Crowley, believe that all spiritual phenomena is actually a reflection of mental processes. The vessel containing the demons in the Solomonic grimoires is believed to be the cranium, the demons merely repressed aspects of the individual, whose job it is to whip them into shape in order to achieve some version of Jungian personal integration. In this way of thinking, evocation and control of demons is a way of talking about complete self-control, and ritual magic is a practice of controlled psychodrama, the aim of which is self-realization. This does not make the practice any less dangerous, however. “Self-realization” is a lovely thought, but being so concerned with the self, it’s easy for such an otherwise good intention to miss the mark of where we can actually find ourselves most fully realized–i.e., by losing ourselves in Christ!

Fourth–the principles that supposedly make ouija boards operative are dumbed-down versions of those you would find in any evocatory ritual designed for the physical manifestation of a spirit in the “triangle of art.” The planchette is the stand-in for the triangle, and the various interrogations of the spirit are versions of an invocation/evocation in which the Operator performs the spiritual equivalent of calling every phone in the world at once and hoping someone answers. Some occultists believe that the only things likely to respond to such a general call, though, are so-called “elemental spirits”–basically the psychically activated husks of dead ideas and patterns of thought that are hanging around in the Operator’s subconscious. They assume various shapes, and subsequently begin to obsess the Operator. A similar idea is taught in Tibetan Buddhism through the creation and destruction of tulpas or thought forms–the practice is meant to show to the devotee that all aspects of “reality” are aspects of the mind. A related Western concept is that of the egregore–a magical creature (in some societies called a “current”) which is created and fed by a group imagination. The example of “Philip” a “spirit” created in 1972 by a group of psychic researchers in Canada is most germane here. The members of the research group created a history for the spirit and agreed upon certain personality traits before they “contacted” the entity through “conventional” seance means. The result? Tables supposedly levitated, people felt and heard things as a group, but curiously, the “spirit” would refuse to answer questions relating to aspects of its life that the group had not already agreed upon in advance. The conclusion the research group came to? The mind is a powerful thing.

So is all that to say that occult-oriented stuff is all about control and manipulation of the mind and not about contact with spiritual entities? I don’t think a firm yes or no matters too much. By virtue of our humanity, we are connected to spiritual realities. That we experience some of these connections through the working of the mind should not be surprising. And while there may be some virtue in mind-altering experiences, I don’t think we are meant to toy with our minds in the ways that so much popular occultism (such as ouija boards) would have us toy with them. Instead, we are meant to put on the Mind of Christ. We are meant to alter our minds and our world through the system of the Sacraments–in conforming ourselves to Christ, we can become vessels of grace, co-creators with him of a new world, a new way of being to each other. There is no greater “magic” than living out this ancient formula, which is the formula of open-ness to the Love and Grace of God: “Ecce ancilla/servus Domini. Fiat secundum verbum tuum.”

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
I think scripture talks of demons instead of the modern psychiatric parlance of OCD, PTSD and so on.
I have heard this interpretation from Catholic teachers. It seems to fall short when trying to explain what it was that escaped into the pigs in Mathew. It also does little to explain levitation, solid objects moving, unknown languages spoken, and other phenomena which exorcists encounter.
 
It also does little to explain levitation, solid objects moving, unknown languages spoken, and other phenomena which exorcists encounter.
What evidence is there for these events, beside the excorcists testimony?

As mentalists and magicians can play a lot of tricks on the mind and as eye witnesses can get a lot of details wrong in stressful circumstances (about 25% of eye witness reports before court are to some extent wrong because the eye witness has false memories about the event), testimonies alone might be not enough to prove something.

Early in the 80s there was some “psychic” research institute, where a scpetic managed to insert two young magicians. They managed to fool the so-called scientists with precognition, moving obejcts and such things for months right up to the point, where they wanted to publish their evidence of supernatural human powers. They were not caught, but told that they played tricks.

Depending upon the circumstances an excorcist might also be played tricks upon or simply err in some way.
 
What evidence is there for these events, beside the excorcists testimony?

As mentalists and magicians can play a lot of tricks on the mind and as eye witnesses can get a lot of details wrong in stressful circumstances (about 25% of eye witness reports before court are to some extent wrong because the eye witness has false memories about the event), testimonies alone might be not enough to prove something.

Early in the 80s there was some “psychic” research institute, where a scpetic managed to insert two young magicians. They managed to fool the so-called scientists with precognition, moving obejcts and such things for months right up to the point, where they wanted to publish their evidence of supernatural human powers. They were not caught, but told that they played tricks.

Depending upon the circumstances an excorcist might also be played tricks upon or simply err in some way.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, there is no “rock solid” proof. In a legal courtroom, eye witness testimony, along with motive and opportunity, is sufficient to sentence a man to death. In the court of science, eye witnesses are viewed skeptically. Photographs are inadmissible.

An interrogator will tell us that the interview is as important as the physical evidence. One needs to consider the sources of the testimony and the preponderance of similar evidence. In order to discount the accounts of people who are involved in exorcisms, we have to conclude that there is a conspiracy among them. People from different backgrounds who have never met would have to have a common goal in order to give similar accounts. The alternative is that they are all painfully unaware of their natural surroundings and misinterpret natural events… For me, the more likely explanation is that they are accurately telling the truth.
 
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