"Our age isn't any different....we don't know anything about how bad it could get"

[spauline]

Typical Catholics dismiss the apocalypse by saying, “our times aren’t any worse than any other time spiritually.”

for them, the world has always had the same relationship to the Catholic Church. They will say, people have always been the same, there have been “many apostasies”, and they say, “we have no idea how bad things could possibly get.”

This is all liberal scumbag trash.

We DO know how bad things can get spiritually because we have, as CATHOLICS, have a DEFINITE set of SOURCES of Divine Truth and grace.

So, no, we DO know how bad things can get relative to the sources and other ages.

These are the only formal sources of Divine Truth:

I. the Trinity and Incarnation
II. The Pope
III. The rest of the Bishops and Oral Tradition
IV. The Scriptures
V. Reason

These are the ONLY primary sources of Divine Truth.

In the beginning of Church history, the first source was attacked while retaining other elements, culminating with Islam. Islamics can be saved, therefore, they are not as bad as deists and rationalists, who cannot be saved in such condition. Islamics accept the notion of Divine Revelation and can attain to Baptism of Implicit Desire.

The Orthodox reject Peter, but retain almost everything else. Therefore, Orthodoxy is the least bad religion of all outside of the Church. They have all Seven Sacraments and Oral Tradition. Very little separates us from them.

The Protestants reject Peter and the other Bishops and Oral Trad, but they retain Scripture and the implicit notions of the Trinity and Incarnation. They have two explicit sacraments, usually, namely, Baptism and Marriage.

Therefore, Protestantism is better than Islam, because it is Christian. Therefore, Protestantism is not nearly as bad as relativism and atheism, and it is much better than deists and rationalists, who cannot be saved, whereas Protestants can.

Deists are Rationalists are the worst category that retains some semblance of religion, for they deny all Supernatural Revelation and Intervention. The only source of Divine Truth they accept is reason. They do not accept nor believe in any assistance from the Divine and hence, have not even the possibilty of Baptism by Desire, hence, they cannot be saved. But at least they accept Reason.

Therefore, we KNOW how BAD it can get.

Atheists and relativistic materialists are UTTERLY depraved. They accept NO SOURCES of Divine Truth, nor any source of grace.

Therefore, our times are apocalyptic in nature, in the sense that, for the first time since pagan Rome, the beast is back. Islam is not the beast, because Islamics can be saved. Protestantism is not the beast, because they can be saved. Even the Enlightenment is not the complete beast, because deists and rationalists still acknowledge monotheism and the neccesity to live according to the natural light of reason. They are not utterly depraved. I’m not saying this is the end of the world, but, I’m saying, guys, we are not living in Augustine’s millennium any more. Secular messianism of the atheistic and relativistic mindsets is the ruling ideology of most first and second world societies.

Liberals who say, “it could get much worse” are theological fools.

The prevailing darkness cannot be any greater, relative to the known truth and grace, than it already is.

Things cannot get any worse spiritually, if only to say that secular messianism and the apostate ideology continue to grow in dominion. But secular messianism and atheism and relativistic materialism CANNOT be any worse spiritually than they already are intrinsically.

I’m sick of people saying we are living in the Millennium, because it is nonsense.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Hi
Things are bad no doubt. But they can get worse. Not saying that we should dismiss the problems we have now though. Not all those will be damned as you mention. We who have the greater knowledge of the truth have the greater risk of being damned. What I believe we should do is focus on our personal sanctification. If we do this we will end up doing as much as we can to help all. The world needs saints and we are called to be those saints. The enemy wants to fill us with gloominess so he can get at us all the better. Don’t ignore the problems but be cheerful and optimistic. God is in complete control no matter how bad things get. What God wants is Saints to be His soldiers to cast out their net and drag in as many as they can. Sancity is the answer.

 

[spauline]

Hi
Things are bad no doubt. But they can get worse. Not saying that we should dismiss the problems we have now though. Not all those will be damned as you mention. We who have the greater knowledge of the truth have the greater risk of being damned. What I believe we should do is focus on our personal sanctification. If we do this we will end up doing as much as we can to help all. The world needs saints and we are called to be those saints. The enemy wants to fill us with gloominess so he can get at us all the better. Don’t ignore the problems but be cheerful and optimistic. God is in complete control no matter how bad things get. What God wants is Saints to be His soldiers to cast out their net and drag in as many as they can. Sancity is the answer.

Dear John,

I appreciate your comment. Actually, my point is not to be gloomy, and i wholeheartedly agree that our personal sanctity is what we are called to do with our life, nor, as I indicated, do I feel that the very end is upon us, for the mystics predict a glorious renewal, if only a chastisement is required.

My point is rather to say that Catholic apologists and writers should try to admit some of the fundamentalist concern and not wave their hands and say, we are rather in a Millennium. What we are living in is a condition of a veritable dark night of the soul, a period in which much of the prevailing world considers our faith to be utterly mute, and not merely partially, as in all other ages beyond pagan rome.

IOW, what i mean is, considering the essence of the spiritual darkness that holds sway, the Church must also develop a more precise and sobering analysis of the essence of iniquity.

JPII did this to some extent when he called the modern false profit materialism.

Admittedly, Christ is reigning from Coming to Coming, inclusive, but that does not relegate the beast to being nonexistant.

Christ reigned from the Ascension, but the beast was waging war in pagan Rome. we know also that spiritual darkness and opposition shall wage war in the very end of the world.
But the modern world, even if only in a temporary darkness, is still in a great darkness, and we need to admit this as a side note to the fact Christ nevertheless reigns throughout the whole age of the Church.

but thanks again for your comment, John. God Bless you.

Scott

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Dear John,

I appreciate your comment. Actually, my point is not to be gloomy, and i wholeheartedly agree that our personal sanctity is what we are called to do with our life, nor, as I indicated, do I feel that the very end is upon us, for the mystics predict a glorious renewal, if only a chastisement is required.

My point is rather to say that Catholic apologists and writers should try to admit some of the fundamentalist concern and not wave their hands and say, we are rather in a Millennium. What we are living in is a condition of a veritable dark night of the soul, a period in which much of the prevailing world considers our faith to be utterly mute, and not merely partially, as in all other ages beyond pagan rome.

IOW, what i mean is, considering the essence of the spiritual darkness that holds sway, the Church must also develop a more precise and sobering analysis of the essence of iniquity.

JPII did this to some extent when he called the modern false profit materialism.

Admittedly, Christ is reigning from Coming to Coming, inclusive, but that does not relegate the beast to being nonexistant.

Christ reigned from the Ascension, but the beast was waging war in pagan Rome. we know also that spiritual darkness and opposition shall wage war in the very end of the world.
But the modern world, even if only in a temporary darkness, is still in a great darkness, and we need to admit this as a side note to the fact Christ nevertheless reigns throughout the whole age of the Church.

but thanks again for your comment, John. God Bless you.

Scott

Hi Scott
I agree and glad it’s not getting you down. Things are a mess for sure. Do you know about the alleged conversation between God and Satan that Pope Leo XIII heard about the 20th century being given to Satan to a degree to see if he could destroy the church and the writing of the prayer to St Michael etc?
I know I need fortitude to persevere through these very difficult times.
Jesus warned of such times and told us that we must peresevere to the end to be saved.
So many have fallen away. I pray we can hang on.
God bless you too.

 

[spauline]

Hi Scott
I agree and glad it’s not getting you down. Things are a mess for sure. Do you know about the alleged conversation between God and Satan that Pope Leo XIII heard about the 20th century being given to Satan to a degree to see if he could destroy the church and the writing of the prayer to St Michael etc?
I know I need fortitude to persevere through these very difficult times.
Jesus warned of such times and told us that we must peresevere to the end to be saved.
So many have fallen away. I pray we can hang on.
God bless you too.

Hi, John.

Oh yeah, I’m well familiar with the audio locution or revelation Pope Leo XIII had. Surely the twentieth century included a great bulk of it. We don’t seem to be out of it yet. Still much apostasy.

But the beauty is, God can draw the greater good. I think in time, people are going to start realizing the true fruits and consequences of the grave errors plaguing society, especially the foundational elements of human sexuality and life. I think in time, when they see espeiclaly the evils of contraception, and how, more or less, only the Catholic Church has stayed the course on this, a great renewal, as Our Lady of Fatima indicates, shall come.

that is, in passing through very troubled times, the world can rediscover its need for God and his Love and Law.

So I think God was like, go ahead, Satan, do your worst. In the beginning of your assaults, the world will be deceived by you, but in time, the real essence of what they are doing will hit home, and your butt will be toast. And then I’ll chain you for a long time, and bring spiritual peace to the world.

Anyway, I have much hope, and I think the Church does too. I think God allowed the devil to progressively create this mess: schism, heresy, infidelity, apostasy, so as to use it to vindicate the Church, and show humanity an unforgettable lesson on how much they need not just some truth, but its fullness. And when they do, there will be spiritual peace on earth like no other time, a time of general rest from all this mess.

after that, humanity won’t have an excuse when they fall away again. but now, I think God can have mercy and show them.

Bless you too, again, John.

 

[reen12]

Jesus did employ ‘viper,’ ‘hypocrite’ - and went so far as to refer to some of the worthies,
of the religious leadership, of His day, as '…an evil and unfaithful generation…"
Yet, at the same time, He was stunned - by the faith of the centurion,
who, surely, would have been ‘labeled’ as either a pagan, or an a-theist.

When he had finished all his words to the people, he entered Capernaum.
A centurion there had a slave who was ill and about to die, and he was valuable to him.
When he heard about Jesus, he sent elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and save the life of his slave.
They approached Jesus and strongly urged him to come, saying, “He deserves to have you do this for him,
for he loves our nation and he built the synagogue for us.”
And Jesus went with them, but when he was only a short distance from the house, the centurion sent friends to tell him,
“Lord, do not trouble yourself, for I am not worthy to have you enter under my roof.
Therefore, I did not consider myself worthy to come to you; but say the word and let my servant be healed.
For I too am a person subject to authority, with soldiers subject to me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another,
‘Come here,’ and he comes; and to my slave, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”
When Jesus heard this he was amazed at him and, turning, said to the crowd following him,
“I tell you, not even in Israel have I found such faith.”
When the messengers returned to the house, they found the slave in good health. [Luke 7]

I do not at all question the fact of the ascendancy of the ‘doctrines’ of secular humanism, and all of it’s works and pomps. Nor am I unaware of how antithetical to Judeo-Christian values such ‘humanism’ may be, in given instances. All of the organs of secular culture seem now to be highly staffed, with persons who consider religous faith antithetical to ‘genuine human progress.’

Yet those who, by His grace, acknowledge His existence, and who worship Him, are called upon to pray for themselves, and for all others.

Since each of the Christian churches acknowledges that faith is a gift of grace, those, so graced, must call out to God - begging Him to continue His call to all men and women. Begging Him, too, for the wisdom to know how best to challenge this ascendancy, of secular humanism, while remaining in His charity - as we so do.

Jesus, Himself, said from His cross: “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”
If we could make this our own prayer, knowing how much each of us needs His mercy, too - this, in itself, may assist those who have not been given the gift of faith. When we speak of others, He asks us to ever hold in mind, that:

God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him [Genesis 1]

God is Mercy. And He will extend mercy, to each of us - in the same manner, and to the same rule, that we, ourselves, extended mercy to others.

For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same?
And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?
So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect. ?" [Matt 5:46-47]

‘Love,’ here, does not mean to affirm another’s views. It means to pray for those - whose ‘doctrines’ we may oppose, vigorously, in the ‘public square.’

reen12

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Quoting John Russell Jnr

Things are bad no doubt. But they can get worse. Not saying that we should dismiss the problems we have now though. Not all those will be damned as you mention. We who have the greater knowledge of the truth have the greater risk of being damned. What I believe we should do is focus on our personal sanctification

Excellent post! For sure, we who hold the greater truth will have more asked of us! “to whom more is given, more will be expected”…and if we focus on our personal sanctification, we will find that we really do come to loving our neighbour and almost daily more and more and that serious sin, perhaps even venial sin, is not so problematic in our lives…all flowing from growth in our love God and His (name removed by moderator)ouring of Grace…and that we are growing and changing.

If we do this we will end up doing as much as we can to help all. The world needs saints and we are called to be those saints. The enemy wants to fill us with gloominess so he can get at us all the better. Don’t ignore the problems but be cheerful and optimistic. God is in complete control no matter how bad things get. What God wants is Saints to be His soldiers to cast out their net and drag in as many as they can. Sancity is the answer.

Good comments and as I said, a really good overall post.
Wednesday 2July Daily Meditation has something to say about Satan and its works - probably the worst things we can do is scare ourselves over the evil that is in the world … we need to engage it and fight against it and if we grow in holiness we will want more and more to do so and be inspired on how to do so effectively and wherever we are called to do so - but not scare ourselves unnecessarily about it. The final victory is ours already, in that we can rejoice and we do…
Daily Meditation re Satan:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=250539

The world needs saints and we are called to be those saints.

Good point! To desire with all one’s heart to be a saint and to strive as best one can, with and through Grace, to be so is our call and vocation in Baptism…and if we fall and fail, saints are sinners who dont give up! for when we do fail, Grace is always present to get up again and persevere.

Blessings …Barb

 

[beckycmarie]

Things are bad, but we know how the story will end.

St. Louis de Montfort says this about the end times:

Mary will raise up apostles of the latter times to make war against the evil one. . . . But the power of Mary over all the devils will especially shine forth in the latter times, when Satan will lay his snares against her heel: that is to say, her humble slaves and poor children, whom she will raise up to make war against him. They shall be little and poor in the world’s esteem, and abased before all like the heel, trodden underfoot and persecuted as the heel is by other members of the body. But in return for this they shall be rich in the grace of God, which Mary shall distribute to them abundantly. They shall be great and exalted before God in sanctity. Superior to all creatures by their lively zeal, and so well sustained with God’s assistance that, with the humility of their heel, in union with Mary, they shall crush the head of the devil and cause Jesus Christ to triumph.

 

[KingAlfred]

Typical Catholics dismiss the apocalypse by saying, “our times aren’t any worse than any other time spiritually.”

for them, the world has always had the same relationship to the Catholic Church. They will say, people have always been the same, there have been “many apostasies”, and they say, “we have no idea how bad things could possibly get.”

This is all liberal scumbag trash.

We DO know how bad things can get spiritually because we have, as CATHOLICS, have a DEFINITE set of SOURCES of Divine Truth and grace.

So, no, we DO know how bad things can get relative to the sources and other ages.

These are the only formal sources of Divine Truth:

I. the Trinity and Incarnation
II. The Pope
III. The rest of the Bishops and Oral Tradition
IV. The Scriptures
V. Reason

These are the ONLY primary sources of Divine Truth.

In the beginning of Church history, the first source was attacked while retaining other elements, culminating with Islam. Islamics can be saved, therefore, they are not as bad as deists and rationalists, who cannot be saved in such condition. Islamics accept the notion of Divine Revelation and can attain to Baptism of Implicit Desire.

The Orthodox reject Peter, but retain almost everything else. Therefore, Orthodoxy is the least bad religion of all outside of the Church. They have all Seven Sacraments and Oral Tradition. Very little separates us from them.

The Protestants reject Peter and the other Bishops and Oral Trad, but they retain Scripture and the implicit notions of the Trinity and Incarnation. They have two explicit sacraments, usually, namely, Baptism and Marriage.

Therefore, Protestantism is better than Islam, because it is Christian. Therefore, Protestantism is not nearly as bad as relativism and atheism, and it is much better than deists and rationalists, who cannot be saved, whereas Protestants can.

Deists are Rationalists are the worst category that retains some semblance of religion, for they deny all Supernatural Revelation and Intervention. The only source of Divine Truth they accept is reason. They do not accept nor believe in any assistance from the Divine and hence, have not even the possibilty of Baptism by Desire, hence, they cannot be saved. But at least they accept Reason.

Therefore, we KNOW how BAD it can get.

Atheists and relativistic materialists are UTTERLY depraved. They accept NO SOURCES of Divine Truth, nor any source of grace.

Therefore, our times are apocalyptic in nature, in the sense that, for the first time since pagan Rome, the beast is back. Islam is not the beast, because Islamics can be saved. Protestantism is not the beast, because they can be saved. Even the Enlightenment is not the complete beast, because deists and rationalists still acknowledge monotheism and the neccesity to live according to the natural light of reason. They are not utterly depraved. I’m not saying this is the end of the world, but, I’m saying, guys, we are not living in Augustine’s millennium any more. Secular messianism of the atheistic and relativistic mindsets is the ruling ideology of most first and second world societies.

Liberals who say, “it could get much worse” are theological fools.

The prevailing darkness cannot be any greater, relative to the known truth and grace, than it already is.

Things cannot get any worse spiritually, if only to say that secular messianism and the apostate ideology continue to grow in dominion. But secular messianism and atheism and relativistic materialism CANNOT be any worse spiritually than they already are intrinsically.

I’m sick of people saying we are living in the Millennium, because it is nonsense.

I believe that yes, we are facing the advance of the Apocalypse, precisely because we, the West, have forsaken Christianity, and opted for the worship of false gods in its place. Accordingly, God will punish us, by allowing waves of new barbarians to destroy Christian Civilization, the masterpiece of Western achievement.

 

[spauline]

I believe that yes, we are facing the advance of the Apocalypse, precisely because we, the West, have forsaken Christianity, and opted for the worship of false gods in its place. Accordingly, God will punish us, by allowing waves of new barbarians to destroy Christian Civilization, the masterpiece of Western achievement.

however, I should clarify. I do NOT think this is the very end. Presumably, there will be a great renewal, an establishment of the Gospel throughout the near whole of humanity. The Jews will be the only ones who still won’t fully get it.

Also, I see the apocalypse in its primary layer of meaning as about the whole Church age, and not merely the very end of history. The stages of the Church across her whole history are just as important as the very end, if not more so.

 

[beckycmarie]

Whenever the end is, we are one day closer to it every day. I personally think I’m more likely to die before the second coming, but no matter what happens, we should prepare our souls for both. The “end of the world” comes for 155,000 or so who die every day.

 

[spauline]

Whenever the end is, we are one day closer to it every day. I personally think I’m more likely to die before the second coming, but no matter what happens, we should prepare our souls for both. The “end of the world” comes for 155,000 or so who die every day.

there are different senses of “when”.

We will never know “when” in terms of the literal clock time and date.

On the other hand, the Church will recognize, in the promulgation of the mystery of iniquity, “when” the world will be in the final apostasy.

It is one thing to say, we know never know the literal date of the Second Coming, and another thing to claim the Church will never understand the full Plan enough to recognize when humanity is turning away from God irrevocably.

Typical Catholics are “apocalyptically challenged.” They dismiss too much. Typical fundamentalism is admittedly dismissible. But not all questions of the meaning of history.

The Church will never know the literal date. But she will eventually understand when the ages of the Church and of salvation history are coming to an irrevocable close.

Therefore, whereas she will never know the literal day, she will know the figurative “days”, the ages of the Church, as the ECFs viewed the apoc.

 

[beckycmarie]

I’d agree that the signs of the times are very telling; so much of what we are warned about in scripture is happening all around us, especially

Matthew 24: 3-8

1 Timothy 4:1-3

2 Timothy 3:1-5

2 Timothy 4:3-5

I think we are experiencing the “birth pangs.”

 

[spauline]

I’d agree that the signs of the times are very telling; so much of what we are warned about in scripture is happening all around us, especially

Matthew 24: 3-8

1 Timothy 4:1-3

2 Timothy 3:1-5

2 Timothy 4:3-5

I think we are experiencing the “birth pangs.”

I don’t know that I agree fully. Matthew 24 has been being fulfilled over and over since the destruction of Jerusalem. there have always been wars, heresies, earthquakes, hatred, betrayal.

Secondly, i wouldn’t say these are the birth pangs of the very end, because, if the mystics are right, the Gentiles are going to be restored to faith for a glorious age of peace.

The Timothy quotes are more applicable, but I don’t think this is the final manifestation of them.

I’m a spiritual historicist, not a futurist. You seem to be interpreting these texts like a futurist.

 

[spauline]

although, we could say there are birth pangs preparing for the great spiritual rebirth of humanity, the reunion of Christians and the glorious restoration of Catholic Christendom, the age of peace.

 

[KingAlfred]

however, I should clarify. I do NOT think this is the very end. Presumably, there will be a great renewal, an establishment of the Gospel throughout the near whole of humanity. The Jews will be the only ones who still won’t fully get it.

Also, I see the apocalypse in its primary layer of meaning as about the whole Church age, and not merely the very end of history. The stages of the Church across her whole history are just as important as the very end, if not more so.

Spot on.