Our Altar Servers want to do a Novus Ordo Mass for the parish, the Pastor has concerns?

[payns2013]

Hi, pretty straight forward, we want to do an 11th Century Mass for the Parish, our Pastor asked what is the value, i was stunned. Not only is the Latin the universal language of the Church, but the Holy Crusades, were and are an integral part of our heritage. i’,m not sure how to proceed, any thoughts?
pax
brad

 

[paperwight66]

You sound a little confused, There was no Novus Ordo in the 11th century.

Did you mean a TLM, or perhaps a Novus Ordo Mass (more correctly, an Ordinary Form aka OF) in Latin?

A TLM (Traditional/Tridentine Latin Mass) didn’t exist in the 11th century either, of course.

 

[MarkThompson]

Hi, pretty straight forward, we want to do an 11th Century Mass for the Parish, our Pastor asked what is the value, i was stunned. Not only is the Latin the universal language of the Church, but the Holy Crusades, were and are an integral part of our heritage. i’,m not sure how to proceed, any thoughts?
pax
brad

No offense, but it sounds like you want a historical reenactment more than you want a Mass. Perhaps the pastor’s concern is that the sacred liturgy should not be put at the service of such “events.”

 

[FromTheAshes777]

This is a rather confusing post. Are you referring to celebrating a Tridentine Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal? Or some other earlier liturgy? There was no N.O. Mass in the 11th century as other posters have stated.

 

[Daniel1Catholic]

There was no true “official mass” of the church so to speak in the 11th century. In the 1500’s, pope Pius V organised the council of Trent, in which the Tridentine mass was formed, taking pieces of the masses of that day, while including the cannon which dates back to the early 200’s, as well as the closing rights. In the year 1970, the Novous Ordo mass was formed, using pieces of the Tridentine mass, as well as coming up with parts of its own. The true languages of both these masses is Latin, while the novous ordo can be said in the vernacular as well. If you wish to see a mass from the 11th century, your best bet would to ask your priest to celebrate the tridentine mass, which is the oldest mass of the church.

 

[OraLabora]

Hi, pretty straight forward, we want to do an 11th Century Mass for the Parish, our Pastor asked what is the value, i was stunned. Not only is the Latin the universal language of the Church, but the Holy Crusades, were and are an integral part of our heritage. i’,m not sure how to proceed, any thoughts?
pax
brad

Here’s a thought.

Just do Gregorian chant for the Ordinary at your regular weekly Mass. If it’s in OT, use Kyrie XIA. Its Kyrie and Gloria are from the 10th century; the Sanctus from the 11th, and the Agnus Dei from the 14th. It’s the usual Kyriale for Sundays of Ordinary Time in the current Graduale Romanum.

Since the Graduale Romanum is the current approved Gregorian chant book for the Ordinary Form Mass, you’ll be able to incorporate ancient tradition that does not ruffle any feathers, official or otherwise, while at the same time continuing an ancient and venerable tradition of the Church.

 

[malphono]

Novus Ordo in this context makes no sense at all, but while I realize that the time-frame is off, I wonder if the OP is referring to Ars Nova (more likely Ars Antiqua – and even that just barely – in the noted time period)?

 

[Faithdancer]

I just assumed that he meant a Tridentine Mass, and overlooked “Novus Ordo” as an unintended error.

As far as the pastor, many modern priests are poorly versed in Latin and don’t have training in conducting Mass in Latin at all. I don’t know about priests from other parts of the world, but one of our parish priests who is from India told me that they didn’t teach the Liturgy in Latin in his seminary. So your pastor may be uncomfortable with the idea partly due to his feeling unqualified to celebrate the Mass in Latin, if he is indeed unfamiliar with it.

 

[paperwight66]

. If you wish to see a mass from the 11th century, your best bet would to ask your priest to celebrate the tridentine mass, which is the oldest mass of the church.

Hmmm… well… as you said, it wouldn’t be of the 11th century. 500 years is a long time.

 

[malphono]

one of our parish priests who is from India told me that they didn’t teach the Liturgy in Latin in his seminary. So your pastor may be uncomfortable with the idea partly due to his feeling unqualified to celebrate the Mass in Latin, if he is indeed unfamiliar with it.

It’s interesting to note that a good number of clergy from India are Syro-Malabar priests who have bi-ritual faculties. Could that be the case with this particular priest? In a seminary of the Syro-Malabar Church, of course, they would not give instruction in mass in Latin, whether for the Usus Antiquior or the Novus Ordo. This is perfectly normal and as it should be. According to the CIC, however, **all **seminaries of the Roman Church are supposed to provide instruction in Latin.( Whether or not they comply with the law is another matter.)

 

[BListon]

If I had a dollar for every time I’ve heard “Novus Ordo Mass”, I would be playing a round of golf with Bill Gates, Ted Turner, and Mark Zuckerburg! There is no such thing as a “Novus Ordo Mass” It is either called the" Ordinary Form" or the" Mass of Paul VI". That’s okay though, It’s a common misconception.

 

[JRKH]

Well we can’t do anything much until the OP comes back and clarifies…

Peace
James

 

[Digitonomy]

According to the CIC, however, **all **seminaries of the Roman Church are supposed to provide instruction in Latin.( Whether or not they comply with the law is another matter.)

The canon actually requires that seminaries are to provide that students “understand Latin well.” Which means they don’t even need to provide instruction in Latin, if for some reason the seminarians are already familiar with it, and more importantly it means they don’t have to provide training in celebrating the mass in Latin, whether Novus Ordo or TLM. However, I think the Holy Father encouraged such training in Summorum Pontificum or one of the associated documents, . Not sure if this was an actual instruction, which I think would carry the force of law, or just a suggestion or exhortation.

 

[malphono]

The canon actually requires that seminaries are to provide that students “understand Latin well.” Which means they don’t even need to provide instruction in Latin, if for some reason the seminarians are already familiar with it, and more importantly it means they don’t have to provide training in celebrating the mass in Latin, whether Novus Ordo or TLM. However, I think the Holy Father encouraged such training in Summorum Pontificum or one of the associated documents, . Not sure if this was an actual instruction, which I think would carry the force of law, or just a suggestion or exhortation.

Now really, how many seminarians are pre-versed in Latin? Sure, there **might **be one or two in a given group, but even there, the exception does not the rule make. IOW, the canon says that seminary is to ensure that the candidates are versed in the language. If, perchance, they already are, fine. If not, then the seminary has a job to do.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Since altar boys can’t “do” Mass anyway, it really doesn’t matter which form or which century.

The suggestion of learning to chant the various responses is a good one.

Putting together some kind of presentation outside of Mass could be really interesting for the rest of the parish. And impressive if researched and organized by high school boys!

 

[ProVobis]

The canon actually requires that seminaries are to provide that students “understand Latin well.” Which means they don’t even need to provide instruction in Latin, if for some reason the seminarians are already familiar with it, and more importantly it means they don’t have to provide training in celebrating the mass in Latin, whether Novus Ordo or TLM. However, I think the Holy Father encouraged such training in Summorum Pontificum or one of the associated documents, . Not sure if this was an actual instruction, which I think would carry the force of law, or just a suggestion or exhortation.

I don’t think the S.P. is an Apostolic Constitution, the highest force of law. However, this issue is addressed in Veterum Sapientia which is an Apostolic Constitution and therefore carries as much weight as, for example, the 1969 Missale Romanum or the 1570 Quo Primum.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostolic_constitution

…

Provisions for the Promotion of Latin Studies

With the foregoing considerations in mind, to which We have given careful thought, We now, in the full consciousness of Our Office and in virtue of Our authority, decree and command the following:

Responsibility for enforcement

1. Bishops and superiors-general of religious orders shall take pains to ensure that in their seminaries and in their schools where adolescents are trained for the priesthood, all shall studiously observe the Apostolic See’s decision in this matter and obey these Our prescriptions most carefully.

1. In the exercise of their paternal care they shall be on their guard lest anyone under their jurisdiction, eager for revolutionary changes, writes against the use of Latin in the teaching of the higher sacred studies or in the Liturgy, or through prejudice makes light of the Holy See’s will in this regard or interprets it falsely.

Study of Latin as a prerequisite

1. As is laid down in Canon Law (can. 1364) or commanded by Our Predecessors, before Church students begin their ecclesiastical studies proper they shall be given a sufficiently lengthy course of instruction in Latin by highly competent masters, following a method designed to teach them the language with the utmost accuracy. “And that too for this reason: lest later on, when they begin their major studies . . . they are unable by reason of their ignorance of the language to gain a full understanding of the doctrines or take part in those scholastic disputations which constitute so excellent an intellectual training for young men in the defense of the faith.” 15

We wish the same rule to apply to those whom God calls to the priesthood at a more advanced age, and whose classical studies have either been neglected or conducted too superficially. No one is to be admitted to the study of philosophy or theology except he be thoroughly grounded in this language and capable of using it.

• Veterum Sapientia

 

[PJD1987]

Trooooollllllll!!! There’s a troll in the dungeon!!

…Thought you should know…



Seriously…no one realized this was a drive-by troll question?

 

[OraLabora]

Trooooollllllll!!! There’s a troll in the dungeon!!

…Thought you should know…



Seriously…no one realized this was a drive-by troll question?

“Trial membership”. Duh. I should have been paying attention. You’re right!

 

[Stylites]

“Trial membership”. Duh. I should have been paying attention. You’re right!

The use of three buzzwords in one small initial post was a giveaway: Latin, Novus Ordo, and Holy Crusades. Being supposedly stunned by a priest’s supposed response to the suggested Holy Joust was a further red flag.

 

[corsair]

Now ya dun it; scared the lad off with the “sharp tongues”.