Our ' beloved' Pews, a Protestant innovation?

[JeraldW]

I know this may be more of a liturgy thread, but it is also somewhat of a Trad one also. So I guess here it is.
I have been reading that before the the Reformation and the Council of Trent , pews as we know them did not exist. The whole entire church was open in front of the most Holy sanctuary and altar.

If i gather correctly, the pew as we know it took rise from the point of view from a sermon- centered Protestant service. People reclining and passively taking in the minister’s reading of scripture and preaching, rather than our fervent pro- active Worship and Adoration at the Most Holy Sacrafice.

Was there some theology that came out of Trent that seemed to justify this ‘innovation’ ? If what I heard is correct, our beloved Tridentine rite was meant to be more orderly than organic compared to the previous rite, was this some Calvanism seeping in?

Should we remove the pews since they seem to be an innovation contaminating our truly Catholic atmosphere, just as we seem to claim many of the ’ innovations’ after V2 came from.

Purely from the logistics standpoint, i can see how a pew-less church would be more condusive to Worship at Mass with things such as large familes not being split up, easier to stay back from Communion, and the ability to Worship closer to your neighbor.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

Good luck with trying to get Americans to attend a church without pews! Try it and let us know how it goes.

 

[TheDoors]

Good luck with trying to get Americans to attend a church without pews! Try it and let us know how it goes.

Some Eastern Catholic churches don’t have pews in the US. Many rites don’t use them, as our way of genuflecting isn’t compatible with them. I find they actually get in the way during the liturgy.

 

[ajecphotos]

Terrible idea to get rid of the pews. Lots of elderly infirm disabled mums with babies etc etc. if it was brought in by the reformation then fine. It’s a good inclusion. Just because something was not thought up by the Catholic Church doesn’t mean it is bad.

 

[Jala]

So everyone stands?? Or sits on the floor?

As someone with stage 4 osteoarthritis, no way could I stand for an hour (or even half an hour). Even sitting on the ground and getting back up again is a circus act.

No seating = I’m not going to that church, no matter what else it may offer.

Jala

 

[CB_Catholic]

I know this may be more of a liturgy thread, but it is also somewhat of a Trad one also. So I guess here it is.
I have been reading that before the the Reformation and the Council of Trent , pews as we know them did not exist. The whole entire church was open in front of the most Holy sanctuary and altar.

If i gather correctly, the pew as we know it took rise from the point of view from a sermon- centered Protestant service. People reclining and passively taking in the minister’s reading of scripture and preaching, rather than our fervent pro- active Worship and Adoration at the Most Holy Sacrafice.

Was there some theology that came out of Trent that seemed to justify this ‘innovation’ ? If what I heard is correct, our beloved Tridentine rite was meant to be more orderly than organic compared to the previous rite, was this some Calvanism seeping in?

Should we remove the pews since they seem to be an innovation contaminating our truly Catholic atmosphere, just as we seem to claim many of the ’ innovations’ after V2 came from.

Purely from the logistics standpoint, i can see how a pew-less church would be more condusive to Worship at Mass with things such as large familes not being split up, easier to stay back from Communion, and the ability to Worship closer to your neighbor.

This has nothing to do with doctrine or dogma. I don’t see why we can’t give our Protestant brothers and sisters credit for a good idea.

If one does not like the pews they can always stand at the back of the church. BTW, I know people say that The Eastern churches are mostly pewless, but every single one I have ever been in around here has pews, including the Orthodox.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

sometimes i go to an easter Mass which is held outside in a field beside a old tree and a convent. its held at 4 or 5 am and mass is said in the dark with no lights or seats. you just stand in the grass and wind and rain and darkness and if Mass was always like that i’d be the first one there, as you leave the sun is just lightening the horizon and the shadowy people shuffle away cheerfully.

 

[IacomusIosephus]

Pews are kinda dumb. I have long thought so. Even as a child it didn’t make sense to stand in a corral staring at rear-ends of the big-people in front of me.

But, since white people don’t like to squat or sit thinking the floor beneath them, we kinda cannot do away with them.

It is obvious to me that Christians are well-grounded people or else we wouldnt kneel so much.

 

[Dale_M]

If one does not like the pews they can always stand at the back of the church. BTW, I know people say that The Eastern churches are mostly pewless, but every single one I have ever been in around here has pews, including the Orthodox.

Rod Dreher, an American columnist, wrote about this:
Rod Dreher:

My family came into Orthodoxy in a parish without pews. St. Seraphim’s Cathedral in Dallas observes the traditional Orthodox custom of parishioners standing for the entire two-hour liturgy, though there are chairs lining the sides of the worship space for those who cannot or who don’t wish to stand for the service. There is no shame in sitting down; it’s just not done by most people. Small children typically sit at their parents’ feet for most of the service.

Rod Dreher:

Before moving to northward, a number of folks told us that Orthodoxy in this part of the country is different from Orthodoxy in the OCA Diocese of the South. One thing we’d notice is that most Orthodox churches have pews. The Greek Orthodox in America accepted pews some decades ago (indeed, the big Greek parish in the Dallas area has pews today), as an attempt to acculturate its congregations to American standards (more historical info on this here). Today, in both the OCA and Antiochian jurisdictions, you find churches with pews (though the well-known Antiochian parish of the Holy Cross in Maryland does not have them)

Rod Dreher:

Roman Catholics used to go to mass like this too, but it appears that the Reformation also brought pews into Catholic churches as well (Byzantine Rite Catholics generally still observe the older tradition of standing during mass, though I’ve attended two Byzantine Rite churches in the US that have pews). It surely must strike most American Christians as interesting, at the very least, to think that pews in Christian churches are a relatively recent innovation in the history of Christianity. For three-quarters of our history, most Christians stood at corporate worship.

blog.beliefnet.com/roddreher/2010/02/pews-vs-standing-an-orthodox-controversy.html

 

[MSSheBear]

So everyone stands?? Or sits on the floor?

As someone with stage 4 osteoarthritis, no way could I stand for an hour (or even half an hour). Even sitting on the ground and getting back up again is a circus act.

No seating = I’m not going to that church, no matter what else it may offer.

Jala

At my parish a good portion of the parishioners can’t stand for very long–even five minutes and many are in wheelchairs. This isn’t a matter of us being lazy; it is a matter of us being old. The pews or chairs are here to stay–and not just at my parish.

 

[Filii_Dei]

Well our parishes have pews, but many a Mass outside of a church have been celebrated without sufficient seating, so all the faithful do is stand and kneel. I have no issue with that, and I personally think it makes people pray more with the Mass as a participant rather than a passive observer, without having to resort to silly antics like sing-along pop hymns and the such. In fact, I daresay we would be able to squeeze more people into churches if we removed the pews! Of course, if we left a few for the elderly and infirm.

 

[Cat]

I would like to know how old the OP is.

OP, keep in mind that “back then,” the life expectancy wasn’t very long, around 40, and less for women.

In other words, most people didn’t live long enough to get to a place where they had osteoarthritis of the knees, which affects a large percentage of the population today, and makes it almost impossible to stand for long periods.

Even young people today often suffer from various joint ailments and back pains.

Also, “back then,” people often died from simple ailments like common colds, influenzas, etc. Today, we survive, and we carry on, but these ailments take a toll on us and make us weaker and achy.

Edema is very common today among all the age groups. This makes it hard to stand for a long time.

Finally–and this is to our shame–many of us are overweight or obese, and have a very hard time standing in one place for a long time. “Back then,” people didn’t have enough to eat and rarely became obese, although some developed edema even though they were thin. There are many causes of edema.

I think before making such a suggestion, it would be good for the OP to consider what it feels like to not be in perfect health or shape. If I am in pain, I will have a difficult time worshipping. Maybe others worship while in pain, but I confess that I’m not that good yet.

Interestingly, in many Protestant worship centers, especially Pentecostal, people stand for much of the worship service while they are praising the Lord. So since the Protestants have now re-invented “standing” while worshipping, is it now better for us Catholics to “sit” while worshipping so that we won’t be “too Protestant”?

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Lots of older churches in Eurpoe still don’t have pews. They will bring in chairs for certain Masses, and there have always been benches along the walls. Older or infirm people can sit there during Mass. At other times people sit on the benches, stand, or kneel during adoration or quiet prayer time in the church.

This is also why it was possible (easier) for people to go to confession during Mass, light candles, say private prayers at a particular statue, even come in and go out without people noticing as much.

Also remember that for most of world history, people didn’t have plush furniture in their homes or ergonomic chairs at work. People stood or sat on benches or upright hard chairs. Someone with mobility impairment or illnesses such as diabetes or a heart condition wasn’t going to Mass anyway - they probably were house-bound.

Those pre-Trent (and post-Trent until recently) people had great core strength!

 

[Faithdancer]

sometimes i go to an easter Mass which is held outside in a field beside a old tree and a convent. its held at 4 or 5 am and mass is said in the dark with no lights or seats. you just stand in the grass and wind and rain and darkness and if Mass was always like that i’d be the first one there, as you leave the sun is just lightening the horizon and the shadowy people shuffle away cheerfully.

“Shadowy people shuffle away cheerfully,” now that’s a poetic image!

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

I know this may be more of a liturgy thread, but it is also somewhat of a Trad one also. So I guess here it is.
I have been reading that before the the Reformation and the Council of Trent , pews as we know them did not exist. The whole entire church was open in front of the most Holy sanctuary and altar.

If i gather correctly, the pew as we know it took rise from the point of view from a sermon- centered Protestant service. People reclining and passively taking in the minister’s reading of scripture and preaching, rather than our fervent pro- active Worship and Adoration at the Most Holy Sacrafice.

Was there some theology that came out of Trent that seemed to justify this ‘innovation’ ? If what I heard is correct, our beloved Tridentine rite was meant to be more orderly than organic compared to the previous rite, was this some Calvanism seeping in?

Should we remove the pews since they seem to be an innovation contaminating our truly Catholic atmosphere, just as we seem to claim many of the ’ innovations’ after V2 came from.

Purely from the logistics standpoint, i can see how a pew-less church would be more condusive to Worship at Mass with things such as large familes not being split up, easier to stay back from Communion, and the ability to Worship closer to your neighbor.

I’ve never heard pews referred to as " beloved," but no matter. I never realized their presence contaminated our " truly Catholic atmosphere." So what’s next to go: electricity? Edison wasn’t Catholic, and the catacombs clearly didn’t have it. Air conditioning? Where would this stop?

 

[Cat]

I’ve never heard pews referred to as " beloved," but no matter. I never realized their presence contaminated our " truly Catholic atmosphere." So what’s next to go: electricity? Edison wasn’t Catholic, and the catacombs clearly didn’t have it. Air conditioning? Where would this stop?

How about bathrooms?

 

[mommamaree]

Pews are kinda dumb. I have long thought so. Even as a child it didn’t make sense to stand in a corral staring at rear-ends of the big-people in front of me.

But, since white people don’t like to squat or sit thinking the floor beneath them, we kinda cannot do away with them.

It is obvious to me that Christians are well-grounded people or else we wouldnt kneel so much.

I am a white person and I have thought this very thing myself. We white folk definitely prefer chairs and view sitting on the floor as “beneath us”. It is the same for sleeping. Beds in homes of people of European descent are elevated the highest of any culture in the world. I suppose both preferences stem from the fact that ground level sleeping or sitting would be absolutely freezing half of the year. Of course, we know also have indoor heating and plush carpets in most churches and homes, so…

 

[mommamaree]

I thought it was meant to be funny. At least, I ended up having a good laugh over it. I am white, and my husband is as well, and we have had some funny conversations about this cultural difference. We believe it stems from European ancestry, because Europe is colder and the nearer the ground the colder it gets.

 

[babochka]

So everyone stands?? Or sits on the floor?

As someone with stage 4 osteoarthritis, no way could I stand for an hour (or even half an hour). Even sitting on the ground and getting back up again is a circus act.

No seating = I’m not going to that church, no matter what else it may offer.

Jala

Pewless churches offer seating around the edge for those who need it. There are often benches or chairs. It isn’t a problem at all. In my childhood church, we had pews, but they were removed from the church from Easter to Pentecost.

Here’s an interesting article (from an Orthodox source) on the subject. It applies to Eastern Catholics as well,

orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/pews.aspx

Personally, I prefer pews, but I certainly understand the arguments against them, at least from the point of view of Byzantine liturgical use. In my own parish, we have to move into the center aisle to make the prostrations that are part of the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts during Lent. On the pew-positive side of things, they keep my kids contained and give them clear paramaters.

 

[andrewstx]

This has nothing to do with doctrine or dogma. I don’t see why we can’t give our Protestant brothers and sisters credit for a good idea.

If one does not like the pews they can always stand at the back of the church. BTW, I know people say that The Eastern churches are mostly pewless, but every single one I have ever been in around here has pews, including the Orthodox.

All Byzantine and Orthodox churches have at least a few seats for the aged and infirm likr me who can’t stand. Divine Liturgy takes at least 90 minutes. I can’t stand that long, though not aged I am infirm from a bad stroke.

And of course everyone can sit for the sermon and Epistle readings.