C
ConstantineTG
Guest
I take it you’ve never been inside an Orthodox or Eastern Catholic parish in the US.
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LINVS
Guest
I’ve sort of envied Protestants with their movie theater seating. However, I can’t imagine Catholic churchs without pews. It seems like a lot of folks at the masses I attend are older; would they have to stand for 45-90 minutes? Perhaps in the pre Council of Trent, younger people were more pious and attended mass in greater numbers. Certainly mortality rates back then ensured worshipers were under 40.
Regardless, I wish the pews were spaced farter apart. As a tall person I can’t knell without my feet hitting the knees of the folks behind me.
Regardless, I wish the pews were spaced farter apart. As a tall person I can’t knell without my feet hitting the knees of the folks behind me.
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Filii_Dei
Guest
Have you ever been to Rome?
In fact, if you’ve seen an open-air Mass, you might notice that many of them are all-standing affairs. I have seen many elderly in the crowd, and they don’t seem to have any trouble. I guess in such cases, faith trumps such discomforts.
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babochka
Guest
Wow, that’s pretty dismissive of the many, many ill and elderly people who suffer from legitimate disabilities.Have you ever been to Rome?
In fact, if you’ve seen an open-air Mass, you might notice that many of them are all-standing affairs. I have seen many elderly in the crowd, and they don’t seem to have any trouble. I guess in such cases, faith trumps such discomforts.
I would assume that the elderly and ill who cannot stand for the entire Mass would not be able to attend. While that might be necessary for occasional events like open-air Masses, it would be a severe lack of charity to not make accommodations for the infirm in a parish church on Sunday.
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Filii_Dei
Guest
I was giving my observation and expressing admiration for these elderly standing in the hot sun for hours on end. I wasn’t even talking about ripping pews out of parish churches. I’m a pew-sitter too. You’re taking me far too seriously.Wow, that’s pretty dismissive of the many, many ill and elderly people who suffer from legitimate disabilities.
Happy new year!
J
JReducation
Guest
Pews in Catholic churches were few. If you visit the old churches and cathedrals of Europe and Latin America, you may still find some that have benches up to the middle of the nave. The benches replaced the boxes that the royalty rented.I know this may be more of a liturgy thread, but it is also somewhat of a Trad one also. So I guess here it is.
I have been reading that before the the Reformation and the Council of Trent , pews as we know them did not exist. The whole entire church was open in front of the most Holy sanctuary and altar.
If i gather correctly, the pew as we know it took rise from the point of view from a sermon- centered Protestant service. People reclining and passively taking in the minister’s reading of scripture and preaching, rather than our fervent pro- active Worship and Adoration at the Most Holy Sacrafice.
Was there some theology that came out of Trent that seemed to justify this ‘innovation’ ? If what I heard is correct, our beloved Tridentine rite was meant to be more orderly than organic compared to the previous rite, was this some Calvanism seeping in?
Should we remove the pews since they seem to be an innovation contaminating our truly Catholic atmosphere, just as we seem to claim many of the ’ innovations’ after V2 came from.
Purely from the logistics standpoint, i can see how a pew-less church would be more condusive to Worship at Mass with things such as large familes not being split up, easier to stay back from Communion, and the ability to Worship closer to your neighbor.
Peasants could not afford to rent boxes; therefore, they stood in the second half of the Church. The open area also allowed for horses. You will notice that most old churches and cathedrals have very high doorways. Very often the knights would ride into the church.
It really didn’t bother Catholics too much, since we only sit for the Liturgy of the Word. The rest of the mass we stand or kneel.
As Protestant communities stressed the Word and Hymns more than Communion, they spent more time sitting. Very often, the services lasted two to four hours. They added pews for everyone. However, if you visit a cities like Richmond, Boston, New York, and Philadelphia, where you will find Protestant churches that date back to Colonial America, you will see the front is divided into boxes with foot heaters and cushioned seats. The second half is made up of pews as we know them. What they did was keep the boxes that we had and added the pews in what used to be open spaces in Catholic churches. In the meantime, Catholic churches got rid of the rental boxes and installed benches. Later, pews replaced the benches.
We really can’t say that Protestants invented the pew. The most that we can say is that they were the first to have churches with pews from front to back.
Have a blessed New Year!
Br. JR, FFV
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JaMc
Guest
Over in my area, we have an Indian mission, built in 1850 (the oldest standing building in the State of Idaho - those of you from back east or Europe, feel free to laugh), and I always thought it was strange that it had no pews - I attributed it to being a cultural thing, more than anything else. Never really thought it was an older practice, until I remembered the old Cathedrals in England and Ireland being the same way…
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JReducation
Guest
I’m glad that you mentioned this, because I’ve been under attack by some people on TC Forum when I have said that the Franciscans did not kneel during the Canon of the Mass because we had no place to kneel. We stood around the altar while the priest celebrated the mass. People have often challenged me, even producing pictures of old mission churches with pews and communion rails.
What people don’t realize is that these were added much much later, longer after the 13th century. Pews, communion rails and too many creature comforts, if you can call them that, were not common until the 16th century and later. Your chapel is an excellent example. I would be interested in knowing what order founded it.
Have a blessed new year!
Br. JR, FFV
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IacomusIosephus
Guest
At the Latin Mass I would go to in Maine. People would sit on the floor. Then again, Maine is an extremely poor state income wise.
Regarding sitting in pews: I have come across a comment in an old manual somewhere that laments the ‘funny French custom of sitting in chairs’ during the preparation in the middle of the holy Mass.
We here in the U.S. have a funny custom too, after holy Communion. I have heard it called: ‘The Rite of the Holy Sitting’.
Regarding sitting in pews: I have come across a comment in an old manual somewhere that laments the ‘funny French custom of sitting in chairs’ during the preparation in the middle of the holy Mass.
We here in the U.S. have a funny custom too, after holy Communion. I have heard it called: ‘The Rite of the Holy Sitting’.
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babochka
Guest
Several of the Franciscan missions in California are without pews. Those that are active parishes do have them, but some are run by the State as museums, and all of those that I’ve visited do not have pews. I once took a docent tour of the mission in Sonoma, and she mentioned that the people would just kneel or sit on the floor.
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JReducation
Guest
THANK YOU
I wish this were a sticky. I have been called a liar, a modernist, a heretic and other words that I can’t spell or that I can’t say in public when I have said that certain customs were not practiced by the entire Latin Church and have given this one as an example. People stood the whole time. If they were friars, they often stood around the altar so that the friar priest did not have his back to his brothers. They were seeing the mass from both sides.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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LINVS
Guest
I have been to the Vatican many years ago; but I was such a bad Catholic I didn’t even think of attending a mass. I was more interested in Roman pizza and the attractive young ladies. As far as pews, I just always figured they put out folding chairs.Have you ever been to Rome?
In fact, if you’ve seen an open-air Mass, you might notice that many of them are all-standing affairs. I have seen many elderly in the crowd, and they don’t seem to have any trouble. I guess in such cases, faith trumps such discomforts.
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TheDoors
Guest
Mmmmm, a candle-lit mass with people praying instead of fussing about with phones, the weekly pamphlet or purses. Children standing up and paying attention instead of colouring on the missal or banging on the pew with toys. Incense and the echo of hymns that people actually sing instead of just kind of mutter along with. This sounds like an amazing idea to me. I’d love to see it happen in every church once a year, just to remind us where we came from.Wow, that’s pretty dismissive of the many, many ill and elderly people who suffer from legitimate disabilities.
I’m not an elderly people, but my knees are shot, I’ve got nerve and brain damage, and I really prefer the standing of the East to the constant shifting up and down of Rome. Stand, bow, stand, bow, stand, REALLY bow, sit for the homily, communion, kneel after communion, stand, exit, stand around chatting about how everybody in the family is doing. It’s wonderful! Of course, I also love that in the Eastern Churches, people don’t just shake the priest’s hand and scurry off after church to go watch football.
You know… I’m really surprised that after all that we’ve lost in the Ruthenian Church due to the Latinizations that you’re so resistant to our own traditions. It’s always such a fight to take a step back toward our roots and our own practices that I sometimes fear we’re destined to just fade into Rome. We’ve such a rich and wonderful history of our own that had to battle so hard to survive, especially here in the US where the Latin bishops tell us that our married priests will somehow confuse their flocks, and in Rome where we’re told that we should just “accept” Latin practices. I personally love the Rosary, and Our Mother has been a faithful guide in my search for Her Son, but it breaks my heart to hear it being recited before the Liturgy instead of the Orthros.
I’m sure that some folks are going to be offended by this, so let me be clear. I don’t think Latin Rite practices are bad in any way, shape or form. But they are not our practices. I don’t think that protestant practices are bad (though perhaps invalid), but they are not our Catholic practices. Innovation and technology are all very well and good, and believe me noone was more thankful for air conditioning than I was worshiping in summer in Texas, but we must never lose sight of those candle-lit days in the catacombs in favour of a rock band and a big-screen display.
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babochka
Guest
Pews don’t make children better or worse behaved. In my experience, younger children (missal banging age) just sit or sprawl on the floor at their parents feet in pewless churches. Older children stand up or sit down, as appropriate. They are generally obedient and not disruptive. Maybe they’re praying, maybe they’re not. Depends on the kid. My toddlers always make a run for it. Pews contain that, for a little while. Unless one happens to manage to get under the pew. Then it becomes a bit of a spectacle. One could make the argument to hold the toddler, and I do, but I need to sit for that. I’m not as young as I used to be, and I can’t hold a 2 year old for an hour and a half without sitting. In our parish, adults are nearly outnumbered by children. We have 23 children, all under 11 years old. Average attendance is about 50. Believe me, nursing moms and those with wiggly toddlers are very grateful for the pews.
Absolutely! Of course, congregational singing isn’t really a tradition in many byzantine churches, Catholic or Orthodox. In many places, the choir does all the singing, with very complex arrangements.
I’m with you! One of my pet peeves is that we seem to have “mandated sitting” in the Ruthenian church. Sure, the pew books say “the people MAY sit” (emphasis not mine), but you’ll stand out like a sore thumb in the Ruthenian church if you stand through a litany. I blame the pews.
Seriously. Our local Greek Orthodox church has pews, and they sit for major portions of the liturgy. Not quite as much as we do, though. Ditto for the Romanian Orthodox church. On the other hand, the Melkites have pews and don’t really use them, save for the epistle and homily. And it is nice to have a place to sit during the epistle and homily. On the other hand, some people have a physical need to sit during parts of the liturgy. It is impressive that you overcome your own physical ailments in order to stand, but many cannot and would not be able to come to church if seating were not available to them.I’m not sure how you think I’m resistant to our traditions. We should stand during the liturgy whether or not we have pews. This thread has shown them to be a Protestant tradition that the Latins have adopted.
I did erroneously interpret this statement to mean that the elderly and infirm should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps and stand, and that their faith will see them through. I have never seen nor heard of a pew-less church, Catholic or Orthodox, that did not have seating available to those who needed to sit.
For the record, I do not resist a return to our traditions. I think we should stand for the liturgy. Several Orthodox churches that I’ve been in have pews. The Greeks even have a pipe organ.
According to my priest, who is from “the old country”, Orthodox churches in Europe often have pews. Pews themselves are not the problem it is how and when they are used.Perhaps the fact that I grew up in a rather non-Latinized church affects my perspective. I’ve heard stories of heavy latinization, but never seen them. In my parish, we had infant Communion when I was a child in the 1970s, so until fairly recently, I thought it was that way everywhere. I’ve never seen stations of the cross in a Ruthenian Church, we’ve never recited the rosary before Divine Liturgy (we do Matins on special occasions, but generally the third hour.) I’ve only seen one Holy Water font (which has since been removed. Our married priest does occasionally scandalize the Romans, but those who are willing to learn quickly come to accept it. I just don’t have a reactionary stance against anything perceived to be “Roman” because I don’t experience Latinization in my own parish, even though I know, through my reading, that it remains rampant in other parts of the country.
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TheDoors
Guest
See, I’m from the other side of the country. My church was this little wooden (and very old-world) church in Dallas that swept me away with it’s grace and beauty. When my time in the Army was done I came back to New York and, well, it’s not the same. Everything you’ve mentioned and more , and it breaks my heart. I think perhaps you’re right, though. Perspective weighs heavily here. Going from a very traditional Ruthenian church to a very latinized church has given me rather clear vision on why traditions are so vital, especially to our little rite from little Russia.Pews don’t make children better or worse behaved. In my experience, younger children (missal banging age) just sit or sprawl on the floor at their parents feet in pewless churches. Older children stand up or sit down, as appropriate. They are generally obedient and not disruptive. Maybe they’re praying, maybe they’re not. Depends on the kid. My toddlers always make a run for it. Pews contain that, for a little while. Unless one happens to manage to get under the pew. Then it becomes a bit of a spectacle. One could make the argument to hold the toddler, and I do, but I need to sit for that. I’m not as young as I used to be, and I can’t hold a 2 year old for an hour and a half without sitting. In our parish, adults are nearly outnumbered by children. We have 23 children, all under 11 years old. Average attendance is about 50. Believe me, nursing moms and those with wiggly toddlers are very grateful for the pews.
Absolutely! Of course, congregational singing isn’t really a tradition in many byzantine churches, Catholic or Orthodox. In many places, the choir does all the singing, with very complex arrangements.
I’m with you! One of my pet peeves is that we seem to have “mandated sitting” in the Ruthenian church. Sure, the pew books say “the people MAY sit” (emphasis not mine), but you’ll stand out like a sore thumb in the Ruthenian church if you stand through a litany. I blame the pews.
I’m not sure how you think I’m resistant to our traditions. We should stand during the liturgy whether or not we have pews. This thread has shown them to be a Protestant tradition that the Latins have adopted.
I did erroneously interpret this statement to mean that the elderly and infirm should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps and stand, and that their faith will see them through. I have never seen nor heard of a pew-less church, Catholic or Orthodox, that did not have seating available to those who needed to sit.
For the record, I do not resist a return to our traditions. I think we should stand for the liturgy. Several Orthodox churches that I’ve been in have pews. The Greeks even have a pipe organ.
Perhaps the fact that I grew up in a rather non-Latinized church affects my perspective. I’ve heard stories of heavy latinization, but never seen them. In my parish, we had infant Communion when I was a child in the 1970s, so until fairly recently, I thought it was that way everywhere. I’ve never seen stations of the cross in a Ruthenian Church, we’ve never recited the rosary before Divine Liturgy (we do Matins on special occasions, but generally the third hour.) I’ve only seen one Holy Water font (which has since been removed. Our married priest does occasionally scandalize the Romans, but those who are willing to learn quickly come to accept it. I just don’t have a reactionary stance against anything perceived to be “Roman” because I don’t experience Latinization in my own parish, even though I know, through my reading, that it remains rampant in other parts of the country.
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Cavaradossi
Guest
It’s interesting that you mention this. I’ve noticed parishioners will chant along with us while we chant, but only if they’ve been exposed to a lot of chant (and sadly, because of the prevalence of choirs and the use of that horrid green book among the Greek Orthodox in America, not enough are exposed to chant). Perhaps it’s just the nature of Greek chant having a lot of repetitive melodic patterns, but it’s pretty easy to pick up passively. I wish the priests would encourage the congregation to follow along with us, so that more would at least try to sing along and pick up the skill passively while trying.
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TimothyH
Guest
As I’ve mentioned before, I have been privileged to have been invited into the sanctuary with the Cistercian Brother’s as they stood around the altar in their abbey Church. It was something I will never forget.THANK YOU
I wish this were a sticky. I have been called a liar, a modernist, a heretic and other words that I can’t spell or that I can’t say in public when I have said that certain customs were not practiced by the entire Latin Church and have given this one as an example. People stood the whole time. If they were friars, they often stood around the altar so that the friar priest did not have his back to his brothers. They were seeing the mass from both sides.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
I really want to ask, “So what?” Really, who cares if pews were a Protestant innovation? Thomas Edison was an atheist and we don’t reject light bulbs.
The whole thing just seems so silly.
-Tim-
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JReducation
Guest
I’m sorry, I have to share this. When I saw in my email, it said that “The Doors have responded to our beloved pews”. My first thought was of a magical room like Beauty and the Beast where objects speak and sing.
I just want to make one comment about the children. I was not born a Franciscan. I’m actually a widower and the father of three. I raised two by myself. Of course they’re independent adults and have been for a very long time; that’s neither here nor there. It’s just background information.
Children standing quietly in Church depends on many factors. I’ve heard many Traditionalists and others talk about her perfectly behaved the children are at their traditionalist chapel as opposed to the unruly children at the mainstream parish church. Having been a parent of three very different children I believe that there is more to it than the form of the mass.
My oldest, a girl was always the most calm child in the world. We took her to mass since she was a month old or so, right after her vaccines. She slept quietly until she was about four, not in one long sleep, mind you . . . just each time she went to mass.
Our second, a boy, was Mr. Congeniality. He was everyone’s friend since he was an infant. This was the baby who smiled at everyone. When he came along, he was the same at church as he was everywhere else. He was attentive to everyone and everything around him. He was not unruly, but he was not a statue either. The reason that he was not unruly had nothing to do with the form of the mass. He was not unruly because he was never allowed to be unruly be he at home, supermarket, department store, park, backyard or church. If he was unruly he had to sit until he calmed down. As I said, he was everyone’s friend. He hated to sit and watch the world go by. He wanted to be with people, so he cooperated. During mass, he stood and sat along with everyone else. When he was old enough to see over the pews, he knelt like everyone else. Until the day he died, at age 7, his little eyes were following everyone’s movements, even though his body was in one place. I can’t guarantee that he was being pious. I don’t understand how some people come on these threads and say that children at the EF mass are being pious and prayerful. Quiet and well behaved is not the same as pious and prayerful. But I’m not about the argue the opposite, because we can’t prove that either.
Finally, my third child, another boy, was the wanderer. This was the kid who needed a leash. We literally had him on a little harness that they sell for toddlers, because if you dropped his hand to take the keys out of your pocket, he was gone. It’s not the ran for the hills. To this day (he’s 24) he never runs, except when playing a sport. He just had a knack for disappearing on you. He was smaller than his siblings. He fit in any crevasse.
At church, he was the one whom I had to watch. I would turn away to look at the other children and suddenly, he was not there. He was actually 10 inches away under the pew in front of us examining someone’s shoes. I remember one Christmas. A well dressed lady sat in front of us. She was wearing a rather expensive and fine looking fur coat. During one of those quiet moments at mass, my son pets the coat and says “Nice doggie,” in a very audible voice. At an Easter Vigil, when he was about three, as the deacon was carrying the paschal candle down the main aisle and everyone was lighting their candles, he suddenly broke into, "Happy birthday to you . . . "
Then there was the midnight mass at Christmas. We belonged to a parish run by Capuchin Franciscan Brothers. As is the Franciscan custom, the Gospel is acted out while the deacon reads the story of the Nativity. That year, my daughter was asked to play one of the angels. As soon as she walked out, he shouts at the top of his lungs, “That’s not an angel, that’s my sister.” I wanted to shove him into the rack where they put the hymnals.
Three children, with three very different personalities, who were not unruly at mass, but I cannot say that it had anything to do with the form. They behaved, because they were taught to behave. However, their personalities were not suppressed in the name of piety. The truth was that as the two surviving children grew, they adjusted well to their environment. My little one, who turned out to be autistic, but I didn’t know it at the time, was very attentive to everything that was happening at the mass. His problem was not attention. His problem was impulse control. There is no liturgical form that’s going to get a central nervous system to do what the CNS refuses to do. That child will have issues with impulse control at church, school, the dinner table or a movie theater until the brain is ready. The most a parent can do is to redirect so that the child is not unruly and not a bother to others.
At the end of the day, the parent who fails to redirect his child is to blame, not the activity. The child who behaves inappropriately at church probably behaves inappropriately in the playground too, because the parent focuses on whatever he or she is doing and forgets that he has to keep one eye on the child. These are the same parents who go to the playground, meet another parent, sit and chat for hours and not notice that the kids are tired, fighting, unhappy, cold, hot or throwing sand in someone’s face, until they hear the cries. The parent is behaving in church the same as he behaves in the playground. He’s focused on his thing. This parents attend the EF, OF, the Latin Church and the Eastern Churches.
J
JReducation
Guest
That’s what I’ve always said. We focus on too many externals. Some externals are essential, but many are not. They’re accidental. Your example of the Cistercian Brothers standing around the altar, because there is no place to sit or kneel around the altar is perfect. I saw the same in some of the Eastern Churches I visited while in the Middle East and in the old churches and cathedrals of Europe and Latin America while I was there. People stood when there were no pews. If the community was religious, such as Franciscans or Cistercians and the number of laymen was small, the laity was invited to stand around the altar with the religious.As I’ve mentioned before, I have been privileged to have been invited into the sanctuary with the Cistercian Brother’s as they stood around the altar in their abbey Church. It was something I will never forget.
I really want to ask, “So what?” Really, who cares if pews were a Protestant innovation? Thomas Edison was an atheist and we don’t reject light bulbs.
The whole thing just seems so silly.
-Tim-
It’s actually the better thing to do. Because when the religious are standing around the altar, the laity in the pews beyond the choir cannot see or hear anything. They may as well be praying a novena, because they’re not really part of the community that’s at mass. They can’t even see the mass. Had you not been invited to stand with the brothers, you would not have seen or heard the mass.
If you come to my house, we have no pews. Our chapel is about 10 x 12. There are mats are old chair that don’t match, five to be exact. There are only two of us in this house. Someday I’ll have to ask Brother who the other chairs are for. I never thought about it until tonight.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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acarlson
Guest
Meh. I think the pews can allow people to focus MORE on the Liturgy - especially the Eucharist - and less on how their feet hurt from standing, how uncomfortable those European wicker chairs are on your back, or how difficult it is to stay kneeling on a cold, medieval marble floor.
Even as a healthy 21-year-old, my knees hurt to high heaven when it comes time to stand if I stay kneeling from the Consecration to the Our Father on those floors! Not saying I don’t offer up the pain, but I can’t imagine someone who already has joint issues doing that!
Even as a healthy 21-year-old, my knees hurt to high heaven when it comes time to stand if I stay kneeling from the Consecration to the Our Father on those floors! Not saying I don’t offer up the pain, but I can’t imagine someone who already has joint issues doing that!
- Status