Our ' beloved' Pews, a Protestant innovation?

[JReducation]

Meh. I think the pews can allow people to focus MORE on the Liturgy - especially the Eucharist - and less on how their feet hurt from standing, how uncomfortable those European wicker chairs are on your back, or how difficult it is to stay kneeling on a cold, medieval marble floor.

Even as a healthy 21-year-old, my knees hurt to high heaven when it comes time to stand if I stay kneeling from the Consecration to the Our Father on those floors! Not saying I don’t offer up the pain, but I can’t imagine someone who already has joint issues doing that!

Believe it or not, the cause of the physical discomfort is not always the hard floor. It’s the angle. Our legs (feet included) are shaped like an upper case L. When you kneel, the L shape should be conserved, as is the case when you sit.

However, when you kneel on the floor, your knees and your toes are on the same plane forcing you to turn your ankle. It’s like walking on the tip of your toes. The leg muscles, especially those around the ankles, were no designed to remain stretched for an extended period of time so that our knees and feet are at the same level. Those muscles and joints are only meant for movement. Remaining in that position for an extended period of time, takes its toll on the leg and hip muscles as you age. They all work together.

When you use a kneeler, even if it doesn’t have padding, your knees are higher than your toes allowing your legs to maintain the L shape. Unless you have sensitive knees that require padding, you should be OK.

The Capuchin Franciscans never use kneelers. They learned to get around this by standing and sitting as much as possible. In addition, they take off their sandals and kneel in their bare feet. This allows you freedom to move your ankles and toes as much as necessary without even noticing it. Shoes constrain your feet.

The next time you have to kneel on a floor, try taking off your shoes.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[sojo]

Brother, I just love your posts! I agree - there is way too much attention to externals by many Catholics.

Our little Church has no pews. Nor kneelers. We have cheap metal chairs. Not the kind with kneelers attached. Just the kind you buy to go with the card tables at bingo. We don’t do much kneeling. There isn’t room, and if one person’s foot catches their chair, then it knocks into another chair, and it hits that poor sleeping baby who sets up a wail, and then we all get the nervous giggles, and then some of us have to make a run for the bathroom because… well… you other older ladies understand how it is.

Even worse than the domino effect of metal chairs collapsing, is that when the kneeling folk stand up they tend to lean on the folding chair in front of them. They aren’t really made for that and then… more clattering, collapsing chairs and more giggles.

Every so often we get someone new or visiting and they attempt to kneel just to show all us heathens what we are supposed to be doing. Then all eyes are on that person and the chair in front and behind them just waiting… waiting… You can even see Father sneaking a peek.

 

[JReducation]

Brother, I just love your posts! I agree - there is way too much attention to externals by many Catholics.

Our little Church has no pews. Nor kneelers. We have cheap metal chairs. Not the kind with kneelers attached. Just the kind you buy to go with the card tables at bingo. We don’t do much kneeling. There isn’t room, and if one person’s foot catches their chair, then it knocks into another chair, and it hits that poor sleeping baby who sets up a wail, and then we all get the nervous giggles, and then some of us have to make a run for the bathroom because… well… you other older ladies understand how it is.

Even worse than the domino effect of metal chairs collapsing, is that when the kneeling folk stand up they tend to lean on the folding chair in front of them. They aren’t really made for that and then… more clattering, collapsing chairs and more giggles.

Every so often we get someone new or visiting and they attempt to kneel just to show all us heathens what we are supposed to be doing. Then all eyes are on that person and the chair in front and behind them just waiting… waiting… You can even see Father sneaking a peek.

I’m chuckling at the metal chairs. Let me explain. St. Peter’s Basiica is the world’s largest Catholic Church in square feet, but not in capacity. The Shrine of the Immaculate Conception actually has a larger capacity, because it was built with pews from front to back. St. Peter’s was not. Even if you do put them in, there is only one naive that you can use. The side naives are too busy. They use metal folding chairs for big occasions.

I was there for mass on Christmas Eve 1999 (been there many times for mass, but Christmas). I was fortunate to know Cardinal Ratzinger. I was able to secure a seat in the third row behind the prelates. But from the middle back and on the side naves, they have the metal folding chairs. The kind that you use in a cafeteria.

St. Peter’s is so old that the acoustics is horrible. There are echos. Every time people get up and down you hear the goofy chairs banging and clanging. But the best is at the end. They have a custom at St. Peter’s. When the Holy Father celebrates mass in the main basilica, he walks down the aisle giving his blessing as he heads to the rear sacristy.

That’s pretty normal. All bishops do that. The custom is the strange part. People stand on the pews and chairs to wave to the Holy Father and to applaud as he passes. You can’t hear the choir. All you hear is a cacophony of cheers, clapping and metal chairs banging and clanging.

That year, I heard the usual noises. Suddenly, I heard a big clang of chairs and a scream. Some poor nun had stood on one of those metal chairs, lost her balance and landed on several other chairs. Well, Sister was, how do you say it, a candidate for Weight Watches Club. When she came down, she not only took down several chairs, but several other people who were standing on chairs around her.

To the pride and glory of every Catholic in the world, the Holy Father, the cardinals and the other clergy kept processing out as if nothing were happening. The choir sang on, I’m not sure what, but I imagine it was a Christmas hymn, and the cheering and clapping continued despite the chaos in that little section of the great basilica. I’m sure that those poor popes buried in the crypt are shaken up each time there is a huge event like this. I remember getting a dirty look from one of the Swiss Guards when I commented that the place needed carpeting. You’d think I had spoken blasphemy. :yup:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[sojo]

Wow! So our little Church is in good company after all! One could say that we are running with the big dogs.

 

[manualman]

I just realized that electric lighting was introduced into the liturgy only in this century and was invented in a heavily protestant country! Clearly we need to go back to candles…

 

[TimothyH]

I’m chuckling at the metal chairs. Let me explain. St. Peter’s Basiica is the world’s largest Catholic Church in square feet, but not in capacity. The Shrine of the Immaculate Conception actually has a larger capacity, because it was built with pews from front to back. St. Peter’s was not. Even if you do put them in, there is only one naive that you can use. The side naives are too busy. They use metal folding chairs for big occasions.

I was there for mass on Christmas Eve 1999 (been there many times for mass, but Christmas). I was fortunate to know Cardinal Ratzinger. I was able to secure a seat in the third row behind the prelates. But from the middle back and on the side naves, they have the metal folding chairs. The kind that you use in a cafeteria.

St. Peter’s is so old that the acoustics is horrible. There are echos. Every time people get up and down you hear the goofy chairs banging and clanging. But the best is at the end. They have a custom at St. Peter’s. When the Holy Father celebrates mass in the main basilica, he walks down the aisle giving his blessing as he heads to the rear sacristy.

That’s pretty normal. All bishops do that. The custom is the strange part. People stand on the pews and chairs to wave to the Holy Father and to applaud as he passes. You can’t hear the choir. All you hear is a cacophony of cheers, clapping and metal chairs banging and clanging.

That year, I heard the usual noises. Suddenly, I heard a big clang of chairs and a scream. Some poor nun had stood on one of those metal chairs, lost her balance and landed on several other chairs. Well, Sister was, how do you say it, a candidate for Weight Watches Club. When she came down, she not only took down several chairs, but several other people who were standing on chairs around her.

To the pride and glory of every Catholic in the world, the Holy Father, the cardinals and the other clergy kept processing out as if nothing were happening. The choir sang on, I’m not sure what, but I imagine it was a Christmas hymn, and the cheering and clapping continued despite the chaos in that little section of the great basilica. I’m sure that those poor popes buried in the crypt are shaken up each time there is a huge event like this. I remember getting a dirty look from one of the Swiss Guards when I commented that the place needed carpeting. You’d think I had spoken blasphemy. :yup:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Reading this, I felt like I was right there.

 

[Rich_C]

I know this may be more of a liturgy thread, but it is also somewhat of a Trad one also. So I guess here it is.
I have been reading that before the the Reformation and the Council of Trent , pews as we know them did not exist. The whole entire church was open in front of the most Holy sanctuary and altar.

That’s my understanding, too. Although, I not sure whether or not the weathly may have already paid to have permanent seating installed for themselves before the Reformation.

If i gather correctly, the pew as we know it took rise from the point of view from a sermon- centered Protestant service.

I think that is the most obvious explanation, yes.

Was there some theology that came out of Trent that seemed to justify this ‘innovation’ ?

I have not researched this, but I have read a fair bit of Church history and I think the appearance of pews was one of those things that happened from the ground up, rather than by mandate from the top. I don’t think there is any theological implication, either.

If what I heard is correct, our beloved Tridentine rite was meant to be more orderly than organic compared to the previous rite, was this some Calvanism seeping in?

Protestantism did not influence the Tridentine missal.

The Tridentine Mass was practically identical to the Roman missal of 1467, which itself had changed very little since about 1200 when the Gloria was introduced. In other words, Trent did not issue a new Mass, it just imposed the form used in Rome for centuries on the rest of the Latin rite. In short, the Tridentine Mass is a pre-Reformation liturgy.

Should we remove the pews since they seem to be an innovation contaminating our truly Catholic atmosphere, just as we seem to claim many of the ’ innovations’ after V2 came from.

Pews are the one good thing Protestants gave us. Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Boy_Wonder]

don’t be silly. pews are fine - even if they originated among protestants.

 

[englishredrose]

The early church everyone did stand, we are given to believe and not only did the stand, they stood for four hours or more…

 

[onenow1]

John 6:11 Jesus then took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them to those who were seated; so also the fish, as much as they wanted

Read more: ewtn.com/ewtn/bible/search_bible.asp#ixzz2H2EIQvwY

God Bless
onenow1

 

[JReducation]

I just realized that electric lighting was introduced into the liturgy only in this century and was invented in a heavily protestant country! Clearly we need to go back to candles…

Let’s not get carried away here. I don’t want to give up walking barefoot in chapel, simply because Francis learned this from Islam and liked it. It’s quite comfortable, not to mention it brings back beautiful memories.

don’t be silly. pews are fine - even if they originated among protestants.

We have to be careful how we say things like this. I can sound offensive, as if Protestants were bad people.

John 6:11 Jesus then took the loaves, and when he had given thanks, he distributed them to those who were seated; so also the fish, as much as they wanted

Read more: ewtn.com/ewtn/bible/search_bible.asp#ixzz2H2EIQvwY

God Bless
onenow1

Actually, the translation is incorrect. They were not seated. Our people never sat for a Seder meal. They reclined. The table was behind you and you sat on a recliner that allowed you to reach over, though often someone would serve.

The original wording said that he passed it around to those who reclined at table with him.

Reclining was a very silly introduction into Judaism that came from Hellenism. The Seder was meant to be eaten standing. Today, we sit around a nice dining room table with all the comforts of home, rather than ready for travel.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[ConstantineTG]

I just realized that electric lighting was introduced into the liturgy only in this century and was invented in a heavily protestant country! Clearly we need to go back to candles…

Well, there is the Easter Vigil and some other feasts in the East where services are done via candle light. Although to the ones I’ve been too, electric lighting was still used albeit minimally. But if you look at the videos of St. Elias Ukrainian Catholic Church in Brampton, Ontario, they totally shut off all their electric lighting. You’ll have two servers attending to Father, one holds the book where he reads the prayers, another would hold the candle to light the book.

 

[ConstantineTG]

The Seder was meant to be eaten standing.

I can see the significance, it was meant for the Jews to get away quickly from the Egyptians. Like in the East we stand, aside from being the posture of the Resurrection it is to signify that like the 5 virgins, we are at the ready for the arrival of the Groom.

 

[Harpazo]

Well, there is the Easter Vigil and some other feasts in the East where services are done via candle light. Although to the ones I’ve been too, electric lighting was still used albeit minimally. But if you look at the videos of St. Elias Ukrainian Catholic Church in Brampton, Ontario, they totally shut off all their electric lighting. You’ll have two servers attending to Father, one holds the book where he reads the prayers, another would hold the candle to light the book.

During the Exapsalmos at Matins (at least in my parish) only a single candle is lit. I don’t understand (pun?) the western phobia of standing to greet our risen Lord. There is an 87 year old widower at my church who stands throughout the entire Divine Liturgy without anyone forcing or coercing him to do so. I think most of us could stand for a few hours a week for Him who endured such sufferings for us. There are surely exceptions, so I will not discount those with legitimate reasons. I have found standing in worship to completely alter my view of worship. It fundamentally changes it.lSure you think about your legs for a bit, but you get used to it.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[SilverCamellia]

I have a friend at church who has bad legs, and she struggles to walk. She is 82. She does not kneel when we are supposed to, and nor do others who have painful afflictions - instead she remains sitting on her pew. Nobody minds, as she would kneel if she could.

What was brilliant was at the First Christmas Mass (on Christmas Eve at 6pm). All the pews were full. All the folding chairs were full. And still there were a few people at the back of the church who stood! Everyone belted their hearts out when we sang, so hopefully some of the people were drawn in from the road outside

ETA: I forgot to say that Father said that was the biggest congregation they’d ever had And I live in a town of 90,000 which has three other Catholic churches, so it isn’t an especially small church.

 

[ConstantineTG]

During the Exapsalmos at Matins (at least in my parish) only a single candle is lit. I don’t understand (pun?) the western phobia of standing to greet our risen Lord. There is an 87 year old widower at my church who stands throughout the entire Divine Liturgy without anyone forcing or coercing him to do so. I think most of us could stand for a few hours a week for Him who endured such sufferings for us. There are surely exceptions, so I will not discount those with legitimate reasons. I have found standing in worship to completely alter my view of worship. It fundamentally changes it.lSure you think about your legs for a bit, but you get used to it.

In Christ,
Andrew

In the Philippines more RC churches are overflowing during Sunday Mass, so at least half the congregation is standing throughout the Mass. Sometimes even outside of the church building. Such big churches would even have speakers outside the church for those who cannot go inside anymore. So certainly many Roman Catholics do stand for Mass

 

[Cat]

Why do we want to imitate other countries and pretend that we still live in the past?

This is the United States, and this is the 21st Century. No one will stop anyone from standing throughout a Mass, so go for it.

But don’t try to convince me that standing during Mass, and turning off all the lights, and probably getting rid of heating, air conditioning, and indoor toilets will cause a revival of devotion in the Catholic Church. That’s just wishful thinking.

We can’t go back in time, people. It might be fun once a year to play “Ancient Catholic”, but to do this on a regular, weekly basis would be difficult for those of us who live in the U.S. in the 21st Century.

And just because other countries still do it doesn’t mean the U.S. will buy into it. We don’t have a thousand years of history behind us. In the U.S., we have always broken new ground and moved forward, ever forward, and although we re-visit the past, we don’t live in it, thank goodness.

I think that Catholics should spend less time bemoaning the past, and more time living right now in what we have and making the very best of it. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I’m getting really fed up with this attitude that “pews” are somehow responsible for casual Christianity. Pews are a BLESSING!!!

 

[Paddy_Walker]

Why do we want to imitate other countries and pretend that we still live in the past?

This is the United States, and this is the 21st Century. No one will stop anyone from standing throughout a Mass, so go for it.

But don’t try to convince me that standing during Mass, and turning off all the lights, and probably getting rid of heating, air conditioning, and indoor toilets will cause a revival of devotion in the Catholic Church. That’s just wishful thinking.

We can’t go back in time, people. It might be fun once a year to play “Ancient Catholic”, but to do this on a regular, weekly basis would be difficult for those of us who live in the U.S. in the 21st Century.

And just because other countries still do it doesn’t mean the U.S. will buy into it. We don’t have a thousand years of history behind us. In the U.S., we have always broken new ground and moved forward, ever forward, and although we re-visit the past, we don’t live in it, thank goodness.

I think that Catholics should spend less time bemoaning the past, and more time living right now in what we have and making the very best of it. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I’m getting really fed up with this attitude that “pews” are somehow responsible for casual Christianity. Pews are a BLESSING!!!

i think it would benefit christianity to drop the luxury and expensive stuff. who were the greatest and most influential saints of the church? not the fat, soft luxurious christians, but the ones who tried to find ways in the gospels of living more closely the Way instead of looking for ways to avoid anything uncomfortable. we need to live in the past if the past was the golden age of christianity. if one man could convert an entire country during his lifetime by spending his youth living and sleeping on a mountainside ‘praying a hundred times a night’, i think this is the way forward not the way backward.

 

[englishredrose]

The early church everyone did stand, we are given to believe and not only did the stand, they stood for four hours or more…

 

[Filii_Dei]

Why do we want to imitate other countries and pretend that we still live in the past?

This is the United States, and this is the 21st Century. No one will stop anyone from standing throughout a Mass, so go for it.

But don’t try to convince me that standing during Mass, and turning off all the lights, and probably getting rid of heating, air conditioning, and indoor toilets will cause a revival of devotion in the Catholic Church. That’s just wishful thinking.

We can’t go back in time, people. It might be fun once a year to play “Ancient Catholic”, but to do this on a regular, weekly basis would be difficult for those of us who live in the U.S. in the 21st Century.

And just because other countries still do it doesn’t mean the U.S. will buy into it. We don’t have a thousand years of history behind us. In the U.S., we have always broken new ground and moved forward, ever forward, and although we re-visit the past, we don’t live in it, thank goodness.

I think that Catholics should spend less time bemoaning the past, and more time living right now in what we have and making the very best of it. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I’m getting really fed up with this attitude that “pews” are somehow responsible for casual Christianity. Pews are a BLESSING!!!

Firstly, nobody is talking about ripping pews out of the churches. Nobody is saying that pews themselves contributed to a decline in faith amongst Catholics, nor will eliminating them cause some magical revival. Yet, to say that it has not influenced us at all is to be naive, for lex orandi, lex credendi is the (Latin) watchword of the churches who continue to hold to the apostolic deposit of faith. Therefore it is good to discuss and reflect on how the introduction of pews has impacted the worship of the church.

Second, dismissing the omission of electric lights and pews as ‘playing Ancient Catholic’ is hardly a charitable description of the traditions and practices of our Eastern brothers. It is something that they are proud of, and I believe there is much we can learn from it.

Thirdly, the fact that other countries are not the United States is not a good enough reason to invalidate this discussion. The United States does not hold some special right or indult to have pews in the church, and its people are not in some greater need of it than any other country. Yet, other countries seem to do fine without them, and this is the point that Brother ConstantineTG and others have been driving at.

The argument that “in the U.S., we have always broken new ground and moved forward, ever forward, and although we re-visit the past, we don’t live in it” also makes no sense. The fact that American churches almost always have pews in them (as compared to European churches) is only because they were built well after pews were made a standard feature of churches, not because - as you claim - that the United States is always modernising itself. It is not like the United States is the only modernised country and other countries are somehow living in the past. My country has even less history than yours, and yet we hold to some more traditional practices.

And before people misunderstand me again, I wish to stress that I, too, sit in pews in my church. I like to discuss this because I find that this could be one of those instances where details that people often overlook may in fact have had profound effects on our faith.