Our ' beloved' Pews, a Protestant innovation?

[YoungTradCath]

Second, dismissing the omission of electric lights and pews as ‘playing Ancient Catholic’ is hardly a charitable description of the traditions and practices of our Eastern brothers. It is something that they are proud of, and I believe there is much we can learn from it.

I agree with other parts of your post, but I do not think Cat knows of the traditions regarding the omission of electric lights by Eastern Catholics, ergo, no un-charitable-ness.

 

[Sky_Pilot]

I’ve long been a student of history … this is the first I’ve known of churches without pews … I thank the OP and all the respondents, I’ve learned something today!

 

[HelenRose]

Really now, is this something to argue about? It must be a slow day.

 

[JeraldW]

Wow, five pages! lots of good info that everyone has brought up from both east and west!

I guess I should explain the tone of my original post. I found it is quite hard to recreate the mood and expression that I had.

I meant this to be somewhat tongue in cheek and maybe a bit cheeky in good sport.

Reason being is that some trads I know are all about pointing to all the “Protestant innovations” in the OF Mass with a snarky tone in their voice.

But then I started researching, and it seemed to me that the promelgation of pews seemed to be a “innovation” themselves. Pews as we know them now are to the secular world synomous with traditional/ orthodox Catholics, in contrast to the theatre seating found in many non-denom congregations. tables turned I guess

I guess its just my silly ironic humor coming into play. hopefully my original post didnt come off as uncharitable.

I do agree wholeheartedly with Br. JR in where we should be less concerned about externals!

Thanks for all the replies, you guys are the best!

 

[onenow1]

Let’s not get carried away here. I don’t want to give up walking barefoot in chapel, simply because Francis learned this from Islam and liked it. It’s quite comfortable, not to mention it brings back beautiful memories.

We have to be careful how we say things like this. I can sound offensive, as if Protestants were bad people.

Actually, the translation is incorrect. They were not seated. Our people never sat for a Seder meal. They reclined. The table was behind you and you sat on a recliner that allowed you to reach over, though often someone would serve.

The original wording said that he passed it around to those who reclined at table with him.

Reclining was a very silly introduction into Judaism that came from Hellenism. The Seder was meant to be eaten standing. Today, we sit around a nice dining room table with all the comforts of home, rather than ready for travel.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

Hi JR , Undersood, however out in the grassy plains I doubt they had tables with them, anyway, reclined or sitting; I doubt standing? It was probably a long day.

God Bless
onenow1

 

[JReducation]

Hi JR , Undersood, however out in the grassy plains I doubt they had tables with them, anyway, reclined or sitting; I doubt standing? It was probably a long day.

God Bless
onenow1

They were in the middle of a desert not in Kansas.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I just realized that electric lighting was introduced into the liturgy only in this century and was invented in a heavily protestant country! Clearly we need to go back to candles…

You make a back-handed point. The Church DOES slowly move with the times. I imagine there was a time when She read, taught, prayed from scrolls. Then she moved to books. One day, the celebrant MAY have an iPad Sacramentary. We used candles for centuries and continue to do so even though most churches, in the West anyway, enjoy electricity (in my parish, the votive lights before the shrines are electric, operated by little buttons. Insurance won’t allow unattended fires!). A candle can be a metaphor that conveys truth, but pragmatically it’s a way to light a building!

I was self-conscious about using my iPhone to make the Stations of the Cross or the Novena of the Divine Mercy in Church, or to prepare for Confession (yup, apps for all those things and more). I figure if someone wants to make an issue out of it, they can ask me and I’ll very nicely explain. The phone is just a way to read a devotion, no holier than a pamphlet or a book.

 

[JReducation]

You make a back-handed point. The Church DOES slowly move with the times. I imagine there was a time when She read, taught, prayed from scrolls. Then she moved to books. One day, the celebrant MAY have an iPad Sacramentary. We used candles for centuries and continue to do so even though most churches, in the West anyway, enjoy electricity (in my parish, the votive lights before the shrines are electric, operated by little buttons. Insurance won’t allow unattended fires!). A candle can be a metaphor that conveys truth, but pragmatically it’s a way to light a building!

I was self-conscious about using my iPhone to make the Stations of the Cross or the Novena of the Divine Mercy in Church, or to prepare for Confession (yup, apps for all those things and more). I figure if someone wants to make an issue out of it, they can ask me and I’ll very nicely explain. The phone is just a way to read a devotion, no holier than a pamphlet or a book.

LOL, you haven’t been to too many monasteries lately, have you? You’ll see many monks using their iPhone to pray the LOTH instead of a book. Some use the iPad, because it’s bigger. I prefer the book, but I’m very old fashioned.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[JKirkLVNV]

LOL, you haven’t been to too many monasteries lately, have you? You’ll see many monks using their iPhone to pray the LOTH instead of a book. Some use the iPad, because it’s bigger. I prefer the book, but I’m very old fashioned.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

My phone is the ONLY way I have any hope of praying the LOTH! I can’t figure it out otherwise! I’ve had the 4 volumes for YEARS!

I also prefer books (I have over 3000) to pads or nooks, etc., but some change is inevitable. For example, when we go to Kindles or Nooks in school, it could potentially save taxpayers, the environment, etc.

 

[TimSpalding]

Maybe the pope will some day make an ex cathedra ruling against cathedrae…

 

[GangGreen]

You make a back-handed point. The Church DOES slowly move with the times. I imagine there was a time when She read, taught, prayed from scrolls. Then she moved to books. One day, the celebrant MAY have an iPad Sacramentary. We used candles for centuries and continue to do so even though most churches, in the West anyway, enjoy electricity (in my parish, the votive lights before the shrines are electric, operated by little buttons. Insurance won’t allow unattended fires!). A candle can be a metaphor that conveys truth, but pragmatically it’s a way to light a building!

I was self-conscious about using my iPhone to make the Stations of the Cross or the Novena of the Divine Mercy in Church, or to prepare for Confession (yup, apps for all those things and more). I figure if someone wants to make an issue out of it, they can ask me and I’ll very nicely explain. The phone is just a way to read a devotion, no holier than a pamphlet or a book.

Sometimes I’ll whip out my phone during mass for a pre/post communion prayer or something and I always feel so self conscious because I feel people will be looking at me thinking I’m sending a text or something rather than saying a prayer.

 

[onenow1]

They were in the middle of a desert not in Kansas.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

They must have been close to where they could purchase food,perhaps the fish was just purchased , beside would you bring fish to the desert ? Also they just did cross the sea of Galilee maybe some grass if not, maybe some beach sand ?

Peace

 

[ConstantineTG]

Why do we want to imitate other countries and pretend that we still live in the past?

This is the United States, and this is the 21st Century. No one will stop anyone from standing throughout a Mass, so go for it.

But don’t try to convince me that standing during Mass, and turning off all the lights, and probably getting rid of heating, air conditioning, and indoor toilets will cause a revival of devotion in the Catholic Church. That’s just wishful thinking.

We can’t go back in time, people. It might be fun once a year to play “Ancient Catholic”, but to do this on a regular, weekly basis would be difficult for those of us who live in the U.S. in the 21st Century.

And just because other countries still do it doesn’t mean the U.S. will buy into it. We don’t have a thousand years of history behind us. In the U.S., we have always broken new ground and moved forward, ever forward, and although we re-visit the past, we don’t live in it, thank goodness.

I think that Catholics should spend less time bemoaning the past, and more time living right now in what we have and making the very best of it. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but I’m getting really fed up with this attitude that “pews” are somehow responsible for casual Christianity. Pews are a BLESSING!!!

I do agree with most of your points, but I disagree with the last bit about “bemoaning the past”. We need to have a consistent tradition which links us to the Apostles, otherwise how do we know our way is the right way? Now, we should also be careful of antiquarianism. We don’t do old things for the sake of being old, but we also shouldn’t be too quick to dismiss the old things because they are old.

 

[TimothyH]

I do agree with most of your points, but I disagree with the last bit about “bemoaning the past”. We need to have a consistent tradition which links us to the Apostles, otherwise how do we know our way is the right way? Now, we should also be careful of antiquarianism. We don’t do old things for the sake of being old, but we also shouldn’t be too quick to dismiss the old things because they are old.

We also have to remember that none of it is revealed truth.

Revealed truth is the only thing which cannot change.

-Tim-

 

[maltmom]

Thank you for a wonderful thread.

I’m one of those with back problems. I thank God for pews and padded kneelers. I can’t stand or kneel very long.

I’d be happy to sit in one of Brother Jay’s extra chairs.

 

[JaMc]

I’m glad that you mentioned this, because I’ve been under attack by some people on TC Forum when I have said that the Franciscans did not kneel during the Canon of the Mass because we had no place to kneel. We stood around the altar while the priest celebrated the mass. People have often challenged me, even producing pictures of old mission churches with pews and communion rails.

What people don’t realize is that these were added much much later, longer after the 13th century. Pews, communion rails and too many creature comforts, if you can call them that, were not common until the 16th century and later. Your chapel is an excellent example. I would be interested in knowing what order founded it.

Have a blessed new year!

Br. JR, FFV

It was actually a Jesuit mission. Here’s a little bit about it: parksandrecreation.idaho.gov/parks/coeur-d-alenes-old-mission

 

[Elisabeth51]

Lots of older churches in Eurpoe still don’t have pews. They will bring in chairs for certain Masses, and there have always been benches along the walls. Older or infirm people can sit there during Mass. At other times people sit on the benches, stand, or kneel during adoration or quiet prayer time in the church.

This is also why it was possible (easier) for people to go to confession during Mass, light candles, say private prayers at a particular statue, even come in and go out without people noticing as much.

Also remember that for most of world history, people didn’t have plush furniture in their homes or ergonomic chairs at work. People stood or sat on benches or upright hard chairs. Someone with mobility impairment or illnesses such as diabetes or a heart condition wasn’t going to Mass anyway - they probably were house-bound.

Those pre-Trent (and post-Trent until recently) people had great core strength!

I noticed that when I went to Westminster Abbey for church (we were going to go to Catholic Mass, but it was just SO tempting to be at Westminster Abbey!) … I don’t know why I hadn’t really thought of it (embarassingly enough I’m a history major–but I was in high school at the time, so I guess can be forgiven that miss), but now when I see pictures of the old cathedrals, they are brought in chairs for services.

I’ve been to Orthodox (Coptic) services and most everyone stands and kneels the full 3 hours–the elderly or infirm and moms sit as needed.