I have read through the bible numerous times. One is so annotated…by myself, that it is difficult for others to read. Having done this, I find no evidence other than it is the writings of men, accumulated by men, for the purposes of certain men.If the RCC is the only one of those that I know,and while there is mystery it is used to keep power in the hands of some. God is neither of those which you describe ,but am tired and will get back .
You need to read God’s word only in NT
The knew the talk that was necessary at the time. Politicians still do it. It’s in their private correspondence where you find their real beliefs.Oldcelt: Just for you (although others can peek)
Presidents:
It is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will to be grateful for all His benefits,and humbly to implore His protection and favor"
George Washington.
We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
John Adams
Before any man can be considered as a member of civil society, he must be considered as a subject of the Governor of the Universe."
James Madison
Is it not in the chain of human events, the birthday of the nation is indissolubly linked with the birthday of the Savior?-that it forms a leading event in the progress of the Gospel dispensation? Is it not the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth?- that it laid the corner stone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?"
John Quincy Adams
FOUNDING FATHERS:
To the kindly influence of Christianity we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness, which mankind now enjoys… Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government- and all blessings which flow from them-must fall with them."
JedediahMorse
“An appeal to arms and the the god of hossts is all that is left to us! Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the god of nature hath placed in our power…Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. there is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us…Is life so dear , or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take: but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!”
Patrick Henry
I’ve lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live the more convincing proof I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of men. If a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We’ve been assured inthe sacred writings that unless the Lord build the house, they labor in vain who build it, I firmly believe this, and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in the political building no better that the builders of Babel."
Benjamin Franklin (continued next post)
deism.com/washington.htmWashington, like many people in colonial America, belonged to the Anglican church and was a vestryman in it. But in early America, particularly in pre-revolutionary America, you had to belong to the dominant church if you wanted to have influence in society, as is illustrated by the following taken from Old Chruches, Ministers and Families of Virginia, by Bishop William Meade, I, p 191. “Even Mr. Jefferson, and George Wythe, who did not conceal their disbelief in Christianity, took their parts in the duties of vestrymen, the one at Williamsburg, the other at Albermarle; for they wished to be men of influence.”
None of which became law in this secular society. Religiousity does not equate to goodness…in some cases, it relates to insanity. Please remember, that in many states, Catholicism was virtually outlawed.(continuation )
CONGRESS
" We are a Christian People…not because the law demands it, not to gain exclusive benefits or to avoid legal disabilities, but from choice and education; and in a land thus universally Christian, what is to be expected, what desired, but that we shall pay due regard to Christianity?"
Senate Judiciary Committee Report, January l9, l853
“at the time of the adoption of the Constitution and the amendments, the universal sentiments was that Christianity should be encouraged,…That was the religion of the Founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.”
House Judiciary Committee Report, March 27, l854
SUPREME COURT JUSTICES:
“the Bible is the best of all books, for it is the word of God and teaches us the way to be happy in this world and in the next. Continue therefore to read it and to regulate your life by it’s precepts,” Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation, to select and preferChristians for their rulers."
John Jay: First Chief Justice
“Human law must rest it’s authority ultimately upon the authority of that law which is Divine…Far from being rivals or enemies , religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants,. Indeed these two sciences run into each other.”
James Wilson: Original Justice on the U.S. Supreme Court
“One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is the Christianity is a part of the Common Law… there never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying at it’s foundation…I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society.”
Joseph Story: U.S.Supreme Court Justice
EDUCATION:
“let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well the main end of his life and studies is to know God and Jesus Christ which is eternal life (John l7:3) and therefore to lay Christ in the bottom as the only foundation of all sound knowledge and learning. and seeing the Lord only giveth wisdom, let every one seriously set himself by prayer in secret to seek it of Him (Proverbs 2,3) every one shall so exercise himself in the reading of the scriptures twice a day that he shall be ready to give such an account of his proficiency therein”
Harvard l636 Student Guidelines
" All the scholars are required to live a religious and blameless life according to the rules of God’s Word, diligently reading the Holy Scriptures, that fountain of Divine light and truth, and constantly attending all the duties of religion."
Yale l787 Student Guidelines.
SUPREME COURT RULINGS
“There is no dissonance in these (legal) declarations…these are not individual sayings, declarations of private persons: they are organic (legal, governmental) utterances; they speak the voice of the entire people…these, and many other matters which might be noticed, add a volume of unofficial declarations to the mass of organic utterances that this is a Christian nation.”
Church of the Holy Trinity v. U.S. l892
(Unanimous Decision Declaring America a Christian Nation Significantly, the U.S.Su preme Court cited dozens of court rulings and legal documents as precedents to arrive at this ruling; but in l962, when the supreme court struck down voluntary prayer in schools, it did so without using any such precedent
“Why may not the Bible, and especially the New Testament, without note or comment, be read and taught as a divine revelation in schools- it’s general precepts expounded, it’s evidences explained and it’s glorious principles of morality inculcated?..Where can the purest principles of morality be learned so clearly or so perfectly as from the New Testament?”
Vidal v. Girard’s Executors, l844
FOREIGN OPINION
“the Americans combine the notions of Christianity and of liberty so intimately in their minds that it is impossible to make them conceive the one without the other.”
Alexis de tocqueville: French observer of America in l83l, author of Democracy in America.
“There is no country in which the people are so religious as in the United States… The great number of religious societies existing in the United States is truly surprising: there are some of them for everything: for instance, societies to distribute the Bible: to distribute tracts; to encourage religious journals: to convert, civilize, educate…to take care of their widows and orphans: to preach, extend, purify, preserve, reform the faith: to build chapels, endow congregations, support seminaries…to establish Sunday schools…to prevent drunkenness, etc.”
Achille Murat, French observer of America in l832
I would say on reading your replies you cannot read between the lines .I have read through the bible numerous times. One is so annotated…by myself, that it is difficult for others to read. Having done this, I find no evidence other than it is the writings of men, accumulated by men, for the purposes of certain men.
That is the truth of the matter. God resides in the heart, not the brain. I stated that Jesus was a human construct because of the strange experiences I have had. I incorrectly reasoned that the concept of the dying-god/god-man was some sort of cultural idea. I was out to prove that Jesus was just another part of that idea. A copy. But I couldn’t make the pieces fit, no matter how hard I tried. I got too deep into it and started to literally ‘go insane’. Luckily I realised this and stopped myself. We cannot understand these things for a good reason. It is mostly to do with faith, but it is also to prevent us from attempting dangerous experiments that could threaten our existence. The biggest proof that the Bible is the word of God is that we simply don’t understand it. It is a mystery. It has so much symbolism and hidden meanings in it that it is impossible for the human brain to understand. Sadly, some people can’t get past this and rather than have faith in it, they write it off. The reality is that it is the truth, and you can tell that because of the inclusion of Pagan religions in the Old Testament. Their mysteries and sacraments point to the truth, it was their rituals and customs that began to degenerate, hence the arrival of Christianity. The word Pagan just means ‘countryfolk’: basically they were rustic people who worshipped outdoors. What we have all took part in today, the worship of God on a Sunday, has been going on for thousands of years. The Sun is the key here. Not a moon or a star, but the Sun. Truth.Yes Neizche and others did go mad because they thought that they could know God with their ‘intellect’,but while you can know God’s material ‘works’ with the left hand brain ,you can only ‘hear God’ with your heart ,and the right hand brain eg. Some people are ‘tone deaf’ ,but there are others who can not only hear a tune ,but after the first hearing can play it or sing it .One is blocked ,but the other is not
It is interesting that Christ did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. In the Old testament the law became a burden to the people by the misuse of it by the Scribes and Pharasees. With the coming of Jesus, Divine grace fulfilled the law not by obligation, but by love. Love of God and neighbor is the fulfillment of the law. How can a secular society give what it doesn,t have? It’s not surprising that many good things did not become law, and it shouldn’t. To force one to do good, or to change one to give love freely, which is what the Gift of Christianity enables one to do. Religiousity (not the excessive kind or the ostentatious kind, but the genuine kind) does equate to goodness…in many cases, it relates to sanctity (not insanity) Please remember, that America was founded by Catholics, who brought Christianity with them and started many missions throughout America. You seem to have a myopic view in reviewing history. One of my greatest faults was to view our society, not all of it, but that part we call secular with condemnation because I saw so much corruption, even in places I did not expect it. I saw it in law enforcement, I saw it in the psychiatric profession, I saw it in the government, I saw it in the military, I saw it everywhere, and yes I saw it in my own Faith community. I was devastated. My family can attest to that. I fought corruption, I was crucified, and I lost. I was an idealist, and naive (but I rather be innocent and naive, then sinful and clever) so I was very vulnerable. When there was no where to turn (although my belief in Jesus was very strong,) I was utterly perplexed! I had a breakdown. When I recuperated, quietly I still pondered for the answer. Then one day while wondering why one of my sons was so lazy after repeatedly being punished for not doing his duty, the light when on in my mind (the moment of grace) I understood why everything negative happened to me. My Faith is Jesus revealed to me that I was not fighting "flesh and blood-humans) but the devil, powers and principalities. I did have some supernatural experiences after which convinced me further that Jesus was real, Satan was real, and that humanity was in bondage to evil. Now when I see corruption in society, I know why, and I no longer judge (at least I pray that I don’t- like Pope Francis says- Who am I to judge) Now I see mankind as truly handicapped, with no danger of being paranoid, but in contact with reality! I was taught by my Faith of this truth, now it was confirmed for me by my experience. Jesus Christ is the Savior of mankind, and the devil will do all in his power to destroy mankind, and steer man away from Christ any way he can.None of which became law in this secular society. Religiousity does not equate to goodness…in some cases, it relates to insanity. Please remember, that in many states, Catholicism was virtually outlawed.
John
And it was completely banned in France after the Revolution. If the experiment was such a success, why isn’t Notre Dame de Paris still a Temple of Reason?Please remember, that in many states, Catholicism was virtually outlawed.
Because people want comforting answers.And it was completely banned in France after the Revolution. If the experiment was such a success, why isn’t Notre Dame de Paris still a Temple of Reason?
Best wishes,
Padster
Yes the ordinary catholic,Irish on my side were honest hard working, innocent,yes innocentIt is interesting that Christ did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. In the Old testament the law became a burden to the people by the misuse of it by the Scribes and Pharasees. With the coming of Jesus, Divine grace fulfilled the law not by obligation, but by love. Love of God and neighbor is the fulfillment of the law. How can a secular society give what it doesn,t have? It’s not surprising that many good things did not become law, and it shouldn’t. To force one to do good, or to change one to give love freely, which is what the Gift of Christianity enables one to do. Religiousity (not the excessive kind or the ostentatious kind, but the genuine kind) does equate to goodness…in many cases, it relates to sanctity (not insanity) Please remember, that America was founded by Catholics, who brought Christianity with them and started many missions throughout America. You seem to have a myopic view in reviewing history. One of my greatest faults was to view our society, not all of it, but that part we call secular with condemnation because I saw so much corruption, even in places I did not expect it. I saw it in law enforcement, I saw it in the psychiatric profession, I saw it in the government, I saw it in the military, I saw it everywhere, and yes I saw it in my own Faith community. I was devastated. My family can attest to that. I fought corruption, I was crucified, and I lost. I was an idealist, and naive (but I rather be innocent and naive, then sinful and clever) so I was very vulnerable. When there was no where to turn (although my belief in Jesus was very strong,) I was utterly perplexed! I had a breakdown. When I recuperated, quietly I still pondered for the answer. Then one day while wondering why one of my sons was so lazy after repeatedly being punished for not doing his duty, the light when on in my mind (the moment of grace) I understood why everything negative happened to me. My Faith is Jesus revealed to me that I was not fighting "flesh and blood-humans) but the devil, powers and principalities. I did have some supernatural experiences after which convinced me further that Jesus was real, Satan was real, and that humanity was in bondage to evil. Now when I see corruption in society, I know why, and I no longer judge (at least I pray that I don’t- like Pope Francis says- Who am I to judge) Now I see mankind as truly handicapped, with no danger of being paranoid, but in contact with reality! I was taught by my Faith of this truth, now it was confirmed for me by my experience. Jesus Christ is the Savior of mankind, and the devil will do all in his power to destroy mankind, and steer man away from Christ any way he can.
I agree with much of what you say. We humans like to control things in order to give us security in what we do. Religion is not exception. We figure that if two Christian people marry, and they have the faith, that everything they learned about their faith, and they guarantee that their children go through the same procedure, then the result would be a Christian child, or person. Indoctrination is not conversion. Procedure in the administration of the Sacraments is not conversion, even though grace is conferred through the Sacraments. The Faith is never passed on from one generation to the next. God doesn’t have grand-children, only adopted children. If grace of conversion could be passed on then God would have great, great grandchildren. No, this is not the case. This gift is Jesus Christ’s alone to give, as Holy Scripture says " Less anyone takes the credit(from Jesus who merited it for us) What we have done is to establish a system of indoctrination, learning doctrine, processing children through the reception of the Sacraments, and when it is done, assuming the person is converted. Yet upon examination we find that the person never had an encounter with Jesus, He is the Gate through which we must go. If you will notice, when the Church is not Christio-centric, that is when secularism comes in (the devil’s realm) and that will destroy the Church. We have suffered great scandal, but Jesus guarantees that the “gates of Hell will not prevail against Her” Holy scripture teaches that “where sin abounds, grace abounds more” I see God moving the Faithful into Apostolic Action. The stench of Hell (corruption) is so strong that the people have to come up for air, and we will be there to throw them a saving line. Jesus Christ. All one has to do is look around the world with our world-wide communication systems to get a good view. To give what I say s ome teeth, I quote two Popes, and St. Paul. Pope John Paul ll, Pope Paul Vl, and St. Paul, the Apostles to the Gentles (that’s us) Pope Paul Vl summarizes for all.Yes the ordinary catholic,Irish on my side were honest hard working, innocent,yes innocent
for they were poor and hardly knew how power and money corrupts society to the point of total decay as in europe .There was no stock exchange,no free masonry to speak of .We certainly never knew of such.
During the years the RCC structure accumulated wealth,political power ,and made friends with the ‘enemy’ to keep that power ;Those against it seeking spiritual goodness and justice were swept aside,and many of the best left . Like the royalty which could not see their people, as they had insulated themselves so well ,and then were caught by surprise
when the revoutions came
God allowed this ,as He will not allow a Church to exist if it is entirely corrupt and in bed with those who are unjust and corrupt, long term. It happened in Russia too where much of the EO were too friendly with a corrupt royalty which demeaned the people terribly .
There are far too many in the RCC who are there for ‘security’ ,but only christ gives security ;No material establishment can as one or other it will be extinct .
You defeated yourself in try to understand by reason, what is a “gift of faith” which ends up in frustration. I understand you are a student of history, and archaeology, so it’s natural to seek facts by the use of reason, and objective reality. When you are studying "the Word of God, in revelation, the Bible, you can not apply the same rules in you quest for fact, since it is Divine Revelation, and that is a gift of Faith. There is plenty of evidence pointingI have read through the bible numerous times. One is so annotated…by myself, that it is difficult for others to read. Having done this, I find no evidence other than it is the writings of men, accumulated by men, for the purposes of certain men.
But I do have faith, since I believe in an unseen, and unknowable creator. Reason tells me that the creator had nothing to do in bringing about humanity, and does nothing to control us now. Our destiny is our own making.You defeated yourself in try to understand by reason, what is a “gift of faith” which ends up in frustration. I understand you are a student of history, and archaeology, so it’s natural to seek facts by the use of reason, and objective reality. When you are studying "the Word of God, in revelation, the Bible, you can not apply the same rules in you quest for fact, since it is Divine Revelation, and that is a gift of Faith. There is plenty of evidence pointing the way, but the sum total of evidence will never give you the Faith, and neither will reason.
I know you have faith in the existence of God, unseen, but I can not agree with “unknowable” the next question is "How does reason tell you that the Creator had nothing to do in bringing about humanity, and does nothing to control us. What do you mean by “control us” I am sure you are familiar with many arguments against these concepts. I am wondering if we are not dealing with reason, but a condition? We covered free will, is there something not accepted or understood, do you agree, or disagree that we have free will? I also know that one can suffer at the hands of those who misrepresent justice, and goodness. ( a case of hypocrisy eg.) and if this happened in one’s own faith, I can understand an alienation from that faith. Which to me only tells me that the person never had a conversion to the faith in the first place. No fault involved.But I do have faith, since I believe in an unseen, and unknowable creator. Reason tells me that the creator had nothing to do in bringing about humanity, and does nothing to control us now. Our destiny is our own making.
I believe in absolute free will. Predestination, no matter which form you choose, is control by a deity. I reject this entirely. So far as my initial acceptance of The Faith, it was absolute, to the point where I once considered the priesthood. The slow change came as I read more and more about that faith, and mystery religions in general.I know you have faith in the existence of God, unseen, but I can not agree with “unknowable” the next question is "How does reason tell you that the Creator had nothing to do in bringing about humanity, and does nothing to control us. What do you mean by “control us” I am sure you are familiar with many arguments against these concepts. I am wondering if we are not dealing with reason, but a condition? We covered free will, is there something not accepted or understood, do you agree, or disagree that we have free will? I also know that one can suffer at the hands of those who misrepresent justice, and goodness. ( a case of hypocrisy eg.) and if this happened in one’s own faith, I can understand an alienation from that faith. Which to me only tells me that the person never had a conversion to the faith in the first place. No fault involved.
You have explained very well this business of assuming that because someone goes through certain practices that they are christian,have a relationship with God .I agree with much of what you say. We humans like to control things in order to give us security in what we do. Religion is not exception. We figure that if two Christian people marry, and they have the faith, that everything they learned about their faith, and they guarantee that their children go through the same procedure, then the result would be a Christian child, or person. Indoctrination is not conversion. Procedure in the administration of the Sacraments is not conversion, even though grace is conferred through the Sacraments. The Faith is never passed on from one generation to the next. God doesn’t have grand-children, only adopted children. If grace of conversion could be passed on then God would have great, great grandchildren. No, this is not the case. This gift is Jesus Christ’s alone to give, as Holy Scripture says " Less anyone takes the credit(from Jesus who merited it for us) What we have done is to establish a system of indoctrination, learning doctrine, processing children through the reception of the Sacraments, and when it is done, assuming the person is converted. Yet upon examination we find that the person never had an encounter with Jesus, He is the Gate through which we must go. If you will notice, when the Church is not Christio-centric, that is when secularism comes in (the devil’s realm) and that will destroy the Church. We have suffered great scandal, but Jesus guarantees that the “gates of Hell will not prevail against Her” Holy scripture teaches that “where sin abounds, grace abounds more” I see God moving the Faithful into Apostolic Action. The stench of Hell (corruption) is so strong that the people have to come up for air, and we will be there to throw them a saving line. Jesus Christ. All one has to do is look around the world with our world-wide communication systems to get a good view. To give what I say s ome teeth, I quote two Popes, and St. Paul. Pope John Paul ll, Pope Paul Vl, and St. Paul, the Apostles to the Gentles (that’s us) Pope Paul Vl summarizes for all.
“The encounter will not take place (with Christ) unless the Gospel is proclaimed by witness. Nevertheless this is always insufficient because the finest witness will prove ineffective if not explained and justified and made explicit by clear unequivocal proclamation of the Lord Jesus Christ by word. There is no evangelization if the Name, teachings, life, promises, the kingdom and the mystery of Jesus, the Son of God are not proclaimed.” (Evangeli Nuntiandi) This spreading the “Good News of Jesus Christ” by Evangelization is causing a "Spiritual Renewal " in the Church, and in the world. I have already seen some of it’s fruits in our society. It is never enough though, and we must keep working in the vineyard. We must keep in mind that corruption is endemic, and those who are not free from it are in spiritual bondage and can not give what they do not have, grace, and the fruit of grace which comes only through Jesus Christ the giver of the Holy Spirit So it would be unfair to condemn them, but condemn the act.
Perhaps, those that were faithful were scandalized by the infestation of secularism, those that were well off financially got to be a big influence on how the church was run. Also there is the possibility that some were formalized, processed, and never really converted, encountered Jesus on a personal level. Remember the initial conversion comes from turning from sin and turning to Jesus. Then we advance in spirituality by applying what we learn from our Faith. We need dedicated spiritual leaders, and I may be wrong but perhaps a lot of men are not suitable, but they slip through the cracks and become ordained, prompted by the real need for priests. We had a large exodus of priests in the U.S. Now I see that the lay people are being called to exercise their own priesthood given to them by Baptism, and the world is expanding. Some Catholic countries (traditionally) are losing population, and are losing the Faith according to statistics. It appears that when a country reaches the heights of success in power and material, and the people enjoy the fruits of freedom paid by those that have died, they no longer experience a need for God they are immersed in His gifts, rather than in the Giver of the gifts. It reminds me of the fallen empire of Rome. America has been greatly blessed and I suspect many things have been taken for granted. There is an old saying “you never miss the water, until the well runs dry” Maybe God is allowing the well to run dry in order to let us know where the water really comes from. Thanks for dialoguing with me, and sharing mutual observations, and God bless you, and the French people.You have explained very well this business of assuming that because someone goes through certain practices that they are christian,have a relationship with God .
Here in France in the countryside, many through custom rather than spiritual conviction
go through the rites of the RCC ,but I find a large number totally atheist just not interested ,but also those who are very and would not go near a Church .You have to ask why people who love God don’t trust the Church ,and those who like fetes and ritual participate, without is having any meaning for them .
.
Yes, it seems so.Right?
Hi there OC.(Aside: last time we met I got reprimanded by a zealous forum master full of his authority for defending your views against another poster’s assault on them. I had to leave for long enough to forget who they both were, and the details. I was disgusted with both of them, and this site in general for a good long time).I believe in absolute free will. Predestination, no matter which form you choose, is control by a deity. I reject this entirely. So far as my initial acceptance of The Faith, it was absolute, to the point where I once considered the priesthood. The slow change came as I read more and more about that faith, and mystery religions in general.
Reason tell me that a benevolent god would not create a species that exists and thrives through death, slavery, manipulation, exploitation and so on. I have too much respect for the creator to believe that.