"Our Father..." From which Bible?

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Simon27

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I do hope I’m posting in the proper section. I have a question concerning the origins of the Lords Prayer as we know it…“Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, & lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil”

I was curious as to which English translation of The Bible it’s taken from? I’d rather like to have whichever edition of The Bible it’s from. Thank you for your time.

“Simon”
 
I have looked through a number of versions of the Bible, including leading Protestant ones, and didn’t find one that precisely had the version of this prayer you provide (the Lord’s Prayer coming from Mt 6:9-13). They all differed in at least small ways. However the precise version of the Lord’s Prayer you provide is the one used in the Catholic mass in the English language.
Of course, since the Lord’s prayer is provided in Greek in the original Greek of the New Testament, there is not really a “right” English version, since they are all translations, a translation legitimately very often done in different ways by different translators.
Otherwise you should consider having a Catholic Bible. The Protestants took some books out of the Old Testament, so their versions don’t have the entire Bible. But I won’t suggest a best Bible, because that could serve to hijack this thread.
 
Simon27 said:
I do hope I’m posting in the proper section. I have a question concerning the origins of the Lords Prayer as we know it…“Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, & lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil”

I was curious as to which English translation of The Bible it’s taken from? I’d rather like to have whichever edition of The Bible it’s from. Thank you for your time.

“Simon”
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The RSV-2CE by Ignatius Press or the Didache Bible (which uses the RSV-2CE translation).
 
CalCatholic said:
The RSV-2CE by Ignatius Press or the Didache Bible (which uses the RSV-2CE translation).
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It’s worth noting that while the RSV-2CE does include the exact translation we use in mass, it dates only to 2006. Part of the OP’s question is where does the translation come from, and it appears to date at least back to the 1928 Book of Common Prayer.
 
Digitonomy said:
the 1928 Book of Common Prayer
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which is substantially the same as the BCP of the 16th century.

I just checked a digital version of the 1549 (original) BCP (with updated spelling), and it has the following:

Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as it is in
heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us
our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil.
Amen.

It predates the King James BIble, whose 1611 version has (archaic spelling here):

Our father which art in heauen, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdome come. Thy will be done, in earth, as it is in heauen. Giue vs this day our daily bread. And forgiue vs our debts, as we forgiue our debters. And lead vs not into temptation, but deliuer vs from euill: For thine is the kingdome, and the power, and the glory, for euer, Amen.

The only notable difference is “debts” in the KJV vs. “trespasses” in the BCP.
 
I think the Geneva Bible (1560) is our earliest translation pre-KJV to have something similar the customary wording, though as Ad Orientem mentions, the Anglican Book of Common Prayer (from which comes the version we commonly say in our prayers) predates the Geneva Bible by a decade.

(1549 BCP) Oure father, whiche arte in heaven, hallowed by thy name. Thy kyngdom come. Thy wyll be done in earth as it is in heaven. Geve us this daye oure dayly bread. And forgeve us oure trespasses, as we forgeve them that trespasse agaynst us. And leade us not into temptacion. But deliver us from evell. Amen.

(Geneva) Our father which art in heauen, halowed be thy name. Thy Kingdome come. Thy will be done euen in earth, as it is in heauen. Giue vs this day our dayly bread. And forgiue vs our dettes, as we also forgiue our detters. And leade vs not into tentation, but deliuer vs from euill: for thine is the kingdome, and the power, and the glorie for euer. Amen.

Before the Geneva Bible, English (Protestant) translations generally stayed close Tyndale’s 1526 rendering of it, which is nearly the same as the ‘standard’ version save for “Let thy kingdom come” and “Let thy will be fulfilled.”

O oure father which arte in heven, halowed be thy name; let thy kingdom come; thy wyll be fulfilled as well in erth as hit ys in heven; geve vs this daye oure dayly breade; and forgeve vs oure treaspases, even as we forgeve them which treaspas vs; leede vs not into temptacion, but delyvre vs ffrom yvell. For thyne is the kingdom and the power, and the glorye for ever. Amen.

This is how 1582 Rheims New Testament renders the thing:

OVR FATHER which art in heauen, sanctified be thy name. Let thy Kingdom come. Thy wil be done, as in heauen, in earth also. Giue vs to day our supersubstantial bread. And forgiue vs our dettes, as we also forgiue our detters. And leade vs not into tentation. But deliuer vs from euil. Amen.
 
I don’t know if he translated it, but I read that Henry VIII mandated the version we use, though I’ll personally stick with the Latin form.

Pat, now we know why w is called double-you rather than double-vee. 🙂
 
“as we forgive them that trespass against us” differs from the version provided in the opening post. The word “debts” also doesn’t appear in the version in the opening post. Not to seem to nitpick, but these versions don’t seem to be the source of the Lord’s Prayer in the opening post.
I don’t have the RSV-2CE, but no doubt this is the source for the version in question.
Ad_Orientem said:
which is substantially the same as the BCP of the 16th century.

I just checked a digital version of the 1549 (original) BCP (with updated spelling), and it has the following:

Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as it is in
heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us
our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil.
Amen.

It predates the King James BIble, whose 1611 version has (archaic spelling here):

Our father which art in heauen, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdome come. Thy will be done, in earth, as it is in heauen. Giue vs this day our daily bread. And forgiue vs our debts, as we forgiue our debters. And lead vs not into temptation, but deliuer vs from euill: For thine is the kingdome, and the power, and the glory, for euer, Amen.

The only notable difference is “debts” in the KJV vs. “trespasses” in the BCP.
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Simon27 said:
I do hope I’m posting in the proper section. I have a question concerning the origins of the Lords Prayer as we know it…“Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, & lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil”

I was curious as to which English translation of The Bible it’s taken from? I’d rather like to have whichever edition of The Bible it’s from. Thank you for your time.

“Simon”
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The first known Old English translation was in A.D. 992. The English translation was in the Douay translation in 1582, 32 years before the King James Version.
 
Ignatius said:
The first known Old English translation was in A.D. 992. The English translation was in the Douay translation in 1582, 32 years before the King James Version.
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I quoted the Rheims NT in my post. It’s not the same as the version many of us say, being more Latinate: “sanctified be thy name,” “as in heauen, in earth also,” “our supersubstantial bread.” Perhaps you’re thinking of the Challoner version of the DR?
 
mdgspencer said:
“as we forgive them that trespass against us” differs from the version provided in the opening post. The word “debts” also doesn’t appear in the version in the opening post. Not to seem to nitpick, but these versions don’t seem to be the source of the Lord’s Prayer in the opening post.
I don’t have the RSV-2CE, but no doubt this is the source for the version in question.
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You’re quite right about the differences. This is the sort of thread where nitpicking is very appropriate. 🙂
 
FWIW, this is the interlinear translation of the Mass.

Pater noster, qui es in cælis,
Father our, Who are in Heaven,

sanctificetur nomen tuum:
may be sanctified name Your:

Adveniat regnum tuum:
May come reign Your:

Fiat voluntas tua sicut in cælo,
may be done will Your just as in heaven,

et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum
and on earth. Bread our daily

da nobis hodie:
give to us today:

Et dimitte nobis debita nostra,
And forgive us debts our,

sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris.
just as we forgive debtors our.

Et ne nos inducas in tentationem.
And do not us lead into temptation.

Sed libera nos a malo. Amen.
But free us from evil. Amen.

One thing I see not 100% literal here is that “inducas” is subjunctive, perhaps better translated as “May you not lead us into temptation.”
 
“Trespasses” is mixed into the modern prayer to take advantage of one of the Lord’s Gospel comments about forgiveness. It’s the next two lines in Matthew after the Lord’s Prayer, so there you go.

(Matthew 6:14-15)

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

“Debts” is the Greek word “opheilema,” and it’s an idiomatic expression meaning “sins.”

“Trespasses” is the Greek word “paraptomata,” and it’s an idiomatic expression meaning “sins.”

(The normal Greek word for “sin” is “hamartia.”)

They do both tell us what sin is like - it’s like owing somebody something and not paying it, or it’s like using somebody else’s land without permission.

Fæder ure,
Pater noster,

ðu ðe eart on heofenum,
qui es in cælis,

si ðin nama gehalgod;
sanctificetur nomen tuum

to-becume ðin rice;
Adveniat regnum tuum:

geweorþe ðin willa
Fiat voluntas tua

on eorðan swa swa on heofenum.
sicut in cælo, et in terra.

Urne ge dæghwamlican hlaf syle us to-deag,
Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie:

and forgyf us ure gyltas
Et dimitte nobis debita nostra

swa swa we forgifaþ urum gyltendum,
sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris.

ane ne gelæde ðu us on costnunge,
Et ne nos inducas in tentationem

ac alys us of yfle.
Sed libera nos a malo.

Amen.
 
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