Our Father hand-holding and Communion blessings

[smndtupidisaftr]

Re: kneeling during the consecration, my understanding is that kneeling during the consecration is normative but that dioceses (or perhaps episcopal conferences – i.e., the groups of dioceses in a large area) have the authority to waive this requirement. (Personally, I don’t like the whole practice of kneeling, then standing and shaking hands like it’s a party, then going back to the kneeling. Quite jarring and discontinuous to my mind. Then again, I don’t have to like the mess, I just have to participate in it.) Anyway, the fact that your parish stands during the consecration is not necessarily an abuse, as it may be the case that the bishop has authorized this. Try checking out other Masses in the area and see if things are done the same way. If so, that’s a good sign that it’s not just an abuse or innovation specific to that parish.

Say what? Kneeling during the consecration, as I understand it, is a universal practice. What is unique to the US is that we kneel all the way through the Great Amen. What is variable from diocese to diocese is kneeling after the Agnus Dei. But as far as I know, kneeling during the consecration is always required, with very few exceptions (such as not being physically able to or being so or the church being so crowded that it becomes impractical, but these are very rare).

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

This issue is the classic making a mountain out of a molehill, especially when this doesn’t even amount to a molehill.

Maybe holding hands does not, but EMHC’s distributing blessings is a big issue when considered in terms of the larger issue of the laity trying to act like the clergy. Blessings are reserved for priests during the Mass. The orans posture is reserved to the priest during the Mass. Even distribution of Communion should normally be reserved to the clergy rather than having an EMHC ministry for the sole purpose of trying to feign participation (as opposed to the participation that we should be searching for during the Mass) rather than using them as necessary. It’s just a subject that gets to me because once you recognize it, you see it everywhere.

 

[Splagchnizomai]

Maybe holding hands does not, but EMHC’s distributing blessings is a big issue when considered in terms of the larger issue of the laity trying to act like the clergy. Blessings are reserved for priests during the Mass. The orans posture is reserved to the priest during the Mass. Even distribution of Communion should normally be reserved to the clergy rather than having an EMHC ministry for the sole purpose of trying to feign participation (as opposed to the participation that we should be searching for during the Mass) rather than using them as necessary. It’s just a subject that gets to me because once you recognize it, you see it everywhere.

Another issue that just gets far too much press among folks around here imo. Far too much bellyaching about an issue that many will be unable to resolve by bellyaching about it at CAF. There are other far more richer and deeper ways to serve the Church than to complain about holding hands during the OF or the role of EMHCs.

 

[PatriceA]

Another issue that just gets far too much press among folks around here imo. Far too much bellyaching about an issue that many will be unable to resolve by bellyaching about it at CAF. There are other far more richer and deeper ways to serve the Church than to complain about holding hands during the OF or the role of EMHCs.

You call it “bellyaching”, I call it educating people on the rubics of the Mass and what is and isn’t permitted. I don’t want a watered down version of the rituals set forth in the GIRM, maybe you do.

 

[Splagchnizomai]

You call it “bellyaching”, I call it educating people on the rubics of the Mass and what is and isn’t permitted. I don’t want a watered down version of the rituals set forth in the GIRM, maybe you do.

Yeah, that’s exactly what I what I want.

Try not to be soooo offended about every little perceived slight. It’s really tiresome, you know? I’ve read some of your posts, many of which are quite insightful.

 

[HelenRose]

You call it “bellyaching”, I call it educating people on the rubics of the Mass and what is and isn’t permitted. I don’t want a watered down version of the rituals set forth in the GIRM, maybe you do.

The question we always need to ask ourselves is: Is our approach toward education working? People are seldom “educated” if they think that they are being made subject to bellyaching or scorn.

Sarcasm, anger and the “holier than thou” attitudes are not the best approaches toward education.

There is a very kind couple in my parish who do not hold hands during the Our Father. Their example is gentle and far more effective than those who demonstrate their love for God with an air of scorn for those around them.

Now, I am not saying that this is your approach. But, one must always be aware of what the goal is and the ways in which to achieve that goal.

I am always amazed at Pope Benedict’s kind and gentle manner as he educates and admonishes his flock.

 

[PatriceA]

Yeah, that’s exactly what I what I want.

Try not to be soooo offended about every little perceived slight. It’s really tiresome, you know? I’ve read some of your posts, many of which are quite insightful.

I’m not offended. You seem to be with people wanting to discuss issues that you don’t find important.

 

[PatriceA]

The question we always need to ask ourselves is: Is our approach toward education working? People are seldom “educated” if they think that they are being made subject to bellyaching or scorn.

Sarcasm, anger and the “holier than thou” attitudes are not the best approaches toward education.

There is a very kind couple in my parish who do not hold hands during the Our Father. Their example is gentle and far more effective than those who demonstrate their love for God with an air of scorn for those around them.

Now, I am not saying that this is your approach. But, one must always be aware of what the goal is and the ways in which to achieve that goal.

I am always amazed at Pope Benedict’s kind and gentle manner as he educates and admonishes his flock.

I’ve been very educated in some areas of the faith that I hadn’t taken the time in the past to consider by some of the “holier than thou” types on CAF. Thank God for them, because my faith has been deeped by their “educating” comments. I’d rather read the comments by people that stand up for the faith in ALL matters, even the most trivial ones that others may see as “bellyaching” or repetitive on CAF. If a certain topic comes across as too many people whining on CAF, why bother to read and comment if the threads are so irritating? Nobody is forcing some members on CAF to participate in the conversations that have grown tiresome to any particular CAF member.

 

[Splagchnizomai]

I’m not offended. You seem to be with people wanting to discuss issues that you don’t find important.

I see what you’re doing here, and it’s hilarious!

 

[tabycat]

Some people will use any reason they can to ‘ballyach’ but there are people may have a valid reason not to hold hands, like a medacal reason (i.e. pain, lack of range of motion in a joint). The one sittine next to them in the pew may not be awaere of the problem and unthinkingly takes the hand next to them may cause pain to the one next to them in the pew. It may be rude or just unthinkingness, I’m not going to say.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Another issue that just gets far too much press among folks around here imo. Far too much bellyaching about an issue that many will be unable to resolve by bellyaching about it at CAF. There are other far more richer and deeper ways to serve the Church than to complain about holding hands during the OF or the role of EMHCs.

Well to be fair, the poor state of catechism and the music in liturgy and the disuse of propers at the Mass certainly are far more pressing issues. I’d say the former far surpasses any other issues.

 

[C794]

Say what? Kneeling during the consecration, as I understand it, is a universal practice. What is unique to the US is that we kneel all the way through the Great Amen. What is variable from diocese to diocese is kneeling after the Agnus Dei. But as far as I know, kneeling during the consecration is always required, with very few exceptions (such as not being physically able to or being so or the church being so crowded that it becomes impractical, but these are very rare).

After looking a little more into it, most sources agree with your statement. Since I’ve only gotten a few responses on this topic I’m going to start a new thread on it (I would’ve just edited my first post, but I’m unable to do that). Thanks

 

[HelenRose]

I’ve been very educated in some areas of the faith that I hadn’t taken the time in the past to consider by some of the “holier than thou” types on CAF. Thank God for them, because my faith has been deeped by their “educating” comments. I’d rather read the comments by people that stand up for the faith in ALL matters, even the most trivial ones that others may see as “bellyaching” or repetitive on CAF. If a certain topic comes across as too many people whining on CAF, why bother to read and comment if the threads are so irritating? Nobody is forcing some members on CAF to participate in the conversations that have grown tiresome to any particular CAF member.

I disagree. There are issues that are important to me. It is important to me that my little mission church learns to appreciate Latin. I love Latin songs and chants. I am working on ways to make this happen. My approach has been to understand their resistance (and there is a strong resistance). My husband and I have the first Sunday of each month to work on making Latin music as beautiful as we can. On the other Sundays we encourage other muscians to do the best they can with what they believe is important…

I bother the read and comment these threads because I want Latin to be loved by others and not forced on others. I want the message to be one of beauty and love - not bellyaching and gripes. To many people on both sides of this issue use sarcasm, bitterness and anger. This is a terrible mistake. I have had musicians tell me that the youth will turn away from Latin. I have found this to be wrong. Children love the mystery of an ancient language. It is all in how it is presented. If I have any regrets, it is that I did not come to appreciate Latin sooner. Believe me, that appreciation did not come from listening to complaints. It came from listening to the beauty of the music itself.

I believe firmly that beauty will always prevail if people are not backed against a wall. And it is working. My congregation is responding more favorably to us as we become better musicians and as we learn how to present this music the way it is meant to be sung.

 

[smndtupidisaftr]

Even if they’re hesitant to use Latin, there are plenty of beautiful hymns that you can use that are in English. Have you heard of the Vatican II hymnal? Many of the hymns in the book are in English, but they are much more proper for use during the Mass than many of the other hymns we are accustomed to hearing. Maybe you’ll want to check it out? They have plenty of samples on their website and maybe you can see what songs you already have in your own hymnal.

 

[HelenRose]

Even if they’re hesitant to use Latin, there are plenty of beautiful hymns that you can use that are in English. Have you heard of the Vatican II hymnal? Many of the hymns in the book are in English, but they are much more proper for use during the Mass than many of the other hymns we are accustomed to hearing. Maybe you’ll want to check it out? They have plenty of samples on their website and maybe you can see what songs you already have in your own hymnal.

We use all kinds of music. My goal is to bring Latin into the mix.