Our Father Hand holding no no?

[dizzy_dave]

I keep hearing that holding hands during the Our Father is not to be done. My question is what are we allowed and not allowed to do during the Our Father as far as gestures go? Are we allowed to raise our hands or hold them out like most all people do, I’m now not sure if I should even do that. What are we supposed to do during the Our Father besides saying it out loud? Raise hands or not? Hold up hands or not?

 

[Dr.Colossus]

I am not aware of the issue of hand-holding being specifically addressed. I do know it was not addressed in *Redemptionis Sacramentum. *The Church considers hand-holding a “spontaneous act of worship” which is not to be encouraged or participated in by the clergy, but as far as I know it has not been formally defined as an abuse. I don’t have any sources on this, so someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but this is my understanding.

 

[dhgray]

Some parishes do and some do not. Some people here like it and some do not. Personnally, my family holds hand but we do not force non-family members to join us .

 

[Tantum_ergo]

When I was reading the Canon Law Forum on EWTN the other day, this issue came up. The expert noted that it (hand holding) appeared to be OK if used by family members in a pew, (DH relaxes!) but that it should be OPTIONAL, NOT used by the priest, and that, as an option, it should not be forced or intruded upon others. He brought up the fact that people with anxiety disorders, say, would find being approached for “hand holding” anxiety provoking. (I agree). He also stated that the issue should be brought to the USCCB because it had become “so widespread in some areas” and because it could engender abuses, as above.

The “orans” posture is another point–it has been both praised and condemned. While at first there were stories that the USCCB was “considering” making it mandatory–to, ironically, cut down on the “ABUSE OF HAND HOLDING AT THE LORD’S PRAYER”, that “consideration” apparently was left on the cutting room floor. NOW there have been definite signs that the consensus is going to be (in the near future) to cut out the orans by the laity, the grounds being that at the Lord’s Prayer it is a PRIESTLY gesture (and haven’t we had enough of the creeping protestantism where lay people are encouraged to “concelebrate” with the priest by doing everything from joining him around the altar to singing the “per ipsum” to saying the eucharist prayers out loud together—gack!), and, if you WATCH the priest, HE LOWERS HIS HANDS during the Lord’s Prayer at least twice (with the Doxology), while the people in the pews continue holding them out–so how is THAT a gesture of UNITY? It looks, quite frankly, goofy, like people getting miscued on the “hokey pokey”.

Of course, we all know that certain places/ bishoprics etc. will NOT follow any “directive” from the “Vatican”, because they are SO CONCERNED about the FEELINGS of their parishoners, who have become SO ATTACHED to a certain gesture, action, “tradition” etc. in the last 30 years that, heck, Mass just wouldn’t be “MASS” unless they could hold hands, join the priest on the altar, self communicate, do the watusi/ liturgical dance etc. Well, we’ll cross those bridges–or bridge those CROSSES–when we come to them, I suppose. I’m just going to keep on praying for two things–that HIS will be done and that I gladly submit to His will even if it appears to contradict MINE.

 

[Chickamauga]

When I first started attending Catholic masses (I’m in RCIA now) I went to a Church that held hands during the Our Father. The priest even came down from the alter to join the congregation in the hand-holding. I didn’t really care for it. It seemed too *kumbaya. *I found another nearby parish where only family members hold hands and it’s fine if they want to do that, but it ain’t for me. :nope:

There is at least one person in the crowd who assumes the orens position during the OF. It seems so strained, so attention-grabbing, so lacking in humility, IMO. :dancing:
Just my $0.02.

 

[hearye]

It seems that the Church takes no particular stand on this issue…and She does take a stand whenever necessary…

Therefore, it seems to be a matter of personal preference…I don’t think anyone’s going to have extra time in purgatory because of holding/non-holding or raising/non-raising during one particular prayer. Just as long as you are loving the Lord with all your heart (etc.) and your neighbor as yourself, I think this is a bit of a minor issue in the grand scheme…

So, that said, it seems that the real issue may be that people get concerned that if they aren’t comfortable with something that ‘everyone else’ is doing, they can feel like other people are looking at them ‘funny’ or judging if they don’t do it. I feel that people are more likely to judge by your attitude than your action.
ie: if you aren’t holding hands (etc), but you have a truely prayerful experience, people (the ones that count anyway) will see that and respect that. If you have a look of disgust at the attrosity of it all, people will see that too…not that we’re praying for people to see us, but, people do, and it can really ‘color’ their experience.

 

[moedom]

At our parish many put their hands up during the OF. Our family likes to put them in front of ourselves, palms open upward just above the belly button close to our body as to not attract attention to ourselves. I find this gesture to be comforting since we are asking to give us our daily bread.

My :twocents:

Moe

 

[kmktexas]

At our parish at home, most people hold hands. It makes my children uncomfortable so we (our family) do not. We just bow our heads and pray.

We are on assignment in Venezuela for a few months. Knowing that some of our postures at home are US based, I have been paying attention to what is done here. I haven’t seen any hand holding but there are some who hold their hands in the orans posture - either shouder height or waist height. In the US, I have observed many who do this raise their hands even higher for “for thine is the kingdom, …” Here in VZ the hands go higher at “deliver us from evil”. The ones with the orans are also the ones who seem not to kneel at the consecration, even though almost everyone else does, including those standing in the courtyard.

 

[Crusader]

From ewtn.com/expert/expertfaqframe.asp?source=/vexperts/conference.htm

Concerning holding hands in the Eucharistic Liturgy the Congregation for Divine Worship in Rome responded as follows:
QUERY: In some places there is a current practice whereby those taking part in the Mass replace the giving of the sign of peace at the deacon’s invitation by holding hands during the singing of the Lord’s Prayer. Is this acceptable? REPLY: The prolonged holding of hands is of itself a sign of communion rather than of peace. Further, it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics. Nor is there any clear explanation of why the sign of peace at the invitation: “Let us offer each other the sign of peace” should be supplanted in order to bring a different gesture with less meaning into another part of the Mass: the sign of peace is filled with meaning, graciousness, and Christian inspiration. Any substitution for it must be repudiated: Notitiae 11 (1975) 226. Notitiae is the journal of the Congregation in which its official interpretations of the rubrics are published.]

While this addresses the holding of hands at the Sign of Peace the reasons given apply also elsewhere in the Mass, including at the Our Father.

1. It is an inappropriate “sign,” since Communion is the sign of intimacy. Thus, a gesture of intimacy is introduced both before the sign of reconciliation (the Sign of Peace), but more importantly, before Holy Communion, the sacramental sign of communion/intimacy within the People of God.
2. It is introduced on personal initiative. The Holy See has authority over the liturgy according to Vatican II’s “Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy” #22 and canon 838 of the Code of Canon Law.

This gesture has come into widespread use, often leaving bishops and pastors at a loss as to how to reverse the situation. For individuals, I would recommend closed eyes and a prayerful posture as sufficient response, rather than belligerence. Most laity, and probably many priests, are blind to the liturgical significance of interrupting the flow of the Mass in this way. It is not necessary to lose one’s peace over this or be an irritation to others. Some proportion is required. If asked why you don’t participate, simply, plainly and charitably tell the questioner of your discovery. If some chance of changing the practice is possible talk to the pastor or work with other laity through the parish council. You can also write the bishop, as is your right in the case of any liturgical abuse not resolved at the parish level. If your judgment is that no change is possible then I believe you are excused from further fraternal correction.

Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL

 

[coeyannie]

Remember when we were little children and our mother’s would say, OK, kneel down and “fold your hands”. Why can’t we just “fold our hands” during the Our Father. IT DRIVES ME CRAZY!!! STOP TRYING TO BE THE PRIEST!!!

 

[csr]

The hand-holding and so forth are part of immanentizing the aspects of our faith. It is a recent affectation that distracts from the holiness of our response to the divine sacrifice.

 

[PASCENDI]

My diocese published a clarification of the GIRM and RS several pages long. It was truly scandalous.
Regardless of their opinions, no honest person could read those documents and come to the conclusions they did:

1. holding hands : good. Orans: better
2. Eucharistic Ministers: new name and the more the merrier
3. Communion : both kinds is favoured, make sure you have enough EMHCs
4. Altar Girls: permitted; quit complaining!
5. Kneeling: please don’t admonish in public by denying eucharist, speak to them privately after mass
6. Objections? : consider your qualifications first and then keep quiet :tsktsk: ; always follow up through proper channels. To wit, don’t write to Rome for heaven’s sake! :banghead:

The liturgical committee was headed up by a veil-less nun :whacky: and a permanent deacon. The nun quit when RS came out because it was too conservative; the deacon stayed on. But, it has the BISHOP’S signature!!! :bowdown:

 

[Jermosh]

I hold hands with my family, I like to hold hands at school morning prayers with my kids the most.

 

[loyola_rambler]

hearye:

It seems that the Church takes no particular stand on this issue…and She does take a stand whenever necessary…

Therefore, it seems to be a matter of personal preference…I don’t think anyone’s going to have extra time in purgatory because of holding/non-holding or raising/non-raising during one particular prayer. Just as long as you are loving the Lord with all your heart (etc.) and your neighbor as yourself, I think this is a bit of a minor issue in the grand scheme…

So, that said, it seems that the real issue may be that people get concerned that if they aren’t comfortable with something that ‘everyone else’ is doing, they can feel like other people are looking at them ‘funny’ or judging if they don’t do it. I feel that people are more likely to judge by your attitude than your action.
ie: if you aren’t holding hands (etc), but you have a truely prayerful experience, people (the ones that count anyway) will see that and respect that. If you have a look of disgust at the attrosity of it all, people will see that too…not that we’re praying for people to see us, but, people do, and it can really ‘color’ their experience.

You hit it right on the head. The NCCB/USCC says there is no prescribed posture for The Lord’s Prayer. The hand-holding is just a variation of the Orans and both are acceptable as long as they’re not intrusive or needlessly delaying the mass. Some people get all rabid about this, but the long and short of it is that it is NOT an abuse and as long as you’re comfortable with it, you’re welcome to do it. If not, just prayer happily to your Creator and don’t worry about the people around you.

 

[Crusader]

loyola rambler:

You hit it right on the head. The NCCB/USCC says there is no prescribed posture for The Lord’s Prayer. The hand-holding is just a variation of the Orans and both are acceptable as long as they’re not intrusive or needlessly delaying the mass. Some people get all rabid about this, but the long and short of it is that it is NOT an abuse and as long as you’re comfortable with it, you’re welcome to do it. If not, just prayer happily to your Creator and don’t worry about the people around you.

When the laity hold hands or use the orans position they do so using personal initiative. The Holy See has authority over the liturgy according to Vatican II’s “Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy” #22 and canon 838 of the Code of Canon Law. So said people are breaking canon law…

 

[wyam]

I agree that it does increase my anxiety wondering if someone is going to reach out & try to force me to hold hands. That happened once at my sister’s church & when I refused, the elderly man looked very purterbed.
I take the advice that I first heard from Karl Keating - I just bow my head & close my eyes with my hands folded & no problems occur.

 

[otm]

Crusader:

When the laity hold hands or use the orans position they do so using personal initiative. The Holy See has authority over the liturgy according to Vatican II’s “Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy” #22 and canon 838 of the Code of Canon Law. So said people are breaking canon law…

The Holy See has authority over the liturgy, but your conclusion that people are violating Canon Law is not sustained. The most recent directive from Rome concerning pstures at Mass is the GIRM, and Rome, being well aware of the 30+ years of complaints about the issue, chose not to address it; in fact, other than the fact that you are to stand, they did not address any posture. By your logic, since no posture is prescribed other than standing, folding your hands, and/or bowing your head would also violate Canon Law. And given that only at a few places in the GIRM is there a requirement to bow your head, that most definitely would be a violation during the Our Father. And you and I both know it is not.

The GIRM doesn’t tell you to fold your hands, or to put them palms together with fingers pointing up. It simply does not address the issue.

It never ceases to amuse me that certain bishops can be lauded so greatly by the conservatives, and so roundly ignored by those same conservatives when that bishop says something they don’t like. To wit: Archbishop Chaput (one I greatly admire), who has said publicly that holding hands is simply not an issue; it should not be forced onto people who don’t want to, nor should it be forbidden to those who wish to.

 

[coeyannie]

The problem with hand holding is that it does intrude. The church I used to attend looked like a ring around the rosie brigade. People were stretched out in the aisle just to glomp on to someone. Then, if you don’t hold their hand, the chain is broken and you feel like a moron. I just don’t think it does anything to enhance the holiness of the Mass. In fact, it is a huge distraction. It goes from that display right into the “peace” fiasco. And that is a huge joke because most of the people have already greeted those same people before Mass and have talked about everything from recipes to their 401k’s before Mass starts. Church is no longer for prayer, it is for socializing and seeing who can be the friendliest person there.

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

 

[otm]

coeyannie:

The problem with hand holding is that it does intrude.

It can. But how much it intrudes is at least in part a matter of our own attitude towards it. I choose not to be upset about it.

coeyannie:

And that is a huge joke because most of the people have already greeted those same people before Mass and have talked about everything from recipes to their 401k’s before Mass starts. Church is no longer for prayer, it is for socializing and seeing who can be the friendliest person there.

If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

I think you perhaps overstate the issue; although I have seen a few churches where things are a bit out of hand. I am finding as time goes by that it is either dying down, or I am more accepting of people greeting one another. But the Sign of Peace is not a greeting; it is to be a time of blessing (“May the peace of Christ be with you”) and of reconcilliation (especially in families). As Archbishop Chaput says, those who wish to not hold hands shoud be respected, and those who do, likewise should be respected.

 

[hearye]

Why can’t coming together for a mass be about community as well as a prayerful celebration? Just because I greet my neighbor, and talk with them, minister to them by showing them that I care about what’s going on in their lives, that doesn’t mean that I’m not taking the mass entirely as seriously as it deserves to be taken.

Be careful not to judge. You can never by appearance alone judge what’s in a person’s heart.