Our Father Hand holding no no?

[Crusader]

otm:

The Holy See has authority over the liturgy, but your conclusion that people are violating Canon Law is not sustained. The most recent directive from Rome concerning pstures at Mass is the GIRM, and Rome, being well aware of the 30+ years of complaints about the issue, chose not to address it; in fact, other than the fact that you are to stand, they did not address any posture. By your logic, since no posture is prescribed other than standing, folding your hands, and/or bowing your head would also violate Canon Law. And given that only at a few places in the GIRM is there a requirement to bow your head, that most definitely would be a violation during the Our Father. And you and I both know it is not.

The GIRM doesn’t tell you to fold your hands, or to put them palms together with fingers pointing up. It simply does not address the issue.

It never ceases to amuse me that certain bishops can be lauded so greatly by the conservatives, and so roundly ignored by those same conservatives when that bishop says something they don’t like. To wit: Archbishop Chaput (one I greatly admire), who has said publicly that holding hands is simply not an issue; it should not be forced onto people who don’t want to, nor should it be forbidden to those who wish to.

Unfortunately you have utterly failed to make your point. The Church says what the Church says. Try as much spin as you like, but the facts don’t change.

Using your logic, it’s OK to grill steaks on a habachi in the sanctuary during the Mass simply because it’s not expressly prohibited by the GIRM. Utter poppycock.

The time is coming…

 

[otm]

Crusader:

Unfortunately you have utterly failed to make your point. The Church says what the Church says. Try as much spin as you like, but the facts don’t change.

Using your logic, it’s OK to grill steaks on a habachi in the sanctuary during the Mass simply because it’s not expressly prohibited by the GIRM. Utter poppycock.

The time is coming…

I always appreciate it when someone drops a total non-sequitur into the conversation. It is a fairly good indicator that they had no response to the statement, therefore, they rely on an illogical extreme to prove their point. The only point it proves is that anything taken to its logical extreme is illogical.

Like you said, the Church says what the Church says. The probelm is that when the Church doesn’t say, what does the lack of a statement mean?

Grilling steaks is not a liturgical act, unless you are ancient Jewish at the temple, and the last I checked, the Temple is gone, and the Dome of the Rock is there (Muslem). It is not a liturgical act in the context of Christianity. Holding hands during prayer has at least some liturgical background in prayer. You (and I) may not like it. We may agree that it is liturgically inappropriate, and we may have different reasons. In fact, I suspect that we do agree on that point; and I also suspect that we have very different reasons for it. But the discussion is dizzydave’s question as to whether or not it is allowed. It is allowed. And more than one orthodox bishop has weighted in on the matter (Chaput and George, for example) stating that it is essentially a non-issue, and should not be forced either way.

Personally, I have a lot of respect for both Cardinal George and Archbishop Chaput, and I suspect that they know more individually about Liturgy than anyone on the Forum (which I take to include Karl Keating and Jimmy Akin).

And as to “the time is coming” comment, I seriously doubt that there is much that is going to happen. Put it in perspective. How long has Canon 917 been around, or the equivalent prior to the last rewrite of Canon Law? And how many bishops world-wide have invoked it since Roe vs Wade ( I use that as a marker; while it is a United States case, the abortion rate in other countries has been sky-rocketing since then). If the bishops can’t get their collective act together about something that serious, you think there is going to be an earthquake over holding hands during the Our Father?

NOT!

What I do think will happen is that it will simply die off in many areas.

Which will be no tremendous loss.

And by the way, my logic has a lot more to it than just the fact that it is not expressly prohibited… I know how law is written, and how it is interpreted.

By the way, I like my steak medium rare… and no steak sauce.