Our Father hand signals

[nianka]

I’ve returned to the Church after a LONG absence and I’m a bit confused . When I was growing up, we never touched each other during Mass, even when the sign of peace was instituted, we were very restrained. So I don’t understand the raising of the hands, holding hands, etc . I realize that in ancient times, the kiss of peace was common, so I understand that argument, however, I feel like I’m at a Sunday-go-to-meeting tent revival when I see this :bowdown: . I’ve gotten to the point where I just bow my head and keep my hands together and to myself during the Pater Noster . I can’t find anything official regarding this (like rubrics in a missal). Can anyone shed light on this? When did it start? Why is it done? And to those who may want to label me as anti-social… mea culpa . Those I choose to greet, hug, etc., I’ll seek out either before or after mass. For some strange reason, when I’m at mass, I want to worship, I’ll fellowship afterwards.
nianka
(St. Jerome “patron saint of crabby people” pray for me)

 

[puzzleannie]

nianka:

I. Those I choose to greet, hug, etc., I’ll seek out either before or after mass. For some strange reason, when I’m at mass, I want to worship, I’ll fellowship afterwards.
nianka

DB gave me a great birthday present, a bamboo backscratcher with a tiny hand at the end, he told me to take it to church and hold it out to anyone who tries to grab my hand at the Our Father, works great. No, neither gestures is prescribed in the rubrics for the congregation so they should not be done. You may give a warm smile, however. Even in my demonstrative Hispanic parish the kissing fortunately is confined to family members, and the choir has been instructed to allow about 5 seconds before loudly beginning the Agnus Dei.

 

[nianka]

puzzleannie:

and the choir has been instructed to allow about 5 seconds before loudly beginning the Agnus Dei.

Thank you, I thought I was losing my mind.
Oh, that we had a choir! Neither the Cathedral in Gallup, nor the little reservation mission church that I go to has one. Sigh.
nianka

 

[netmilsmom]

nianka:

I’ve returned to the Church after a LONG absence and I’m a bit confused . When I was growing up, we never touched each other during Mass, even when the sign of peace was instituted, we were very restrained. So I don’t understand the raising of the hands, holding hands, etc . I realize that in ancient times, the kiss of peace was common, so I understand that argument, however, I feel like I’m at a Sunday-go-to-meeting tent revival when I see this :bowdown: . I’ve gotten to the point where I just bow my head and keep my hands together and to myself during the Pater Noster . I can’t find anything official regarding this (like rubrics in a missal). Can anyone shed light on this? When did it start? Why is it done? And to those who may want to label me as anti-social… mea culpa . Those I choose to greet, hug, etc., I’ll seek out either before or after mass. For some strange reason, when I’m at mass, I want to worship, I’ll fellowship afterwards.
nianka
(St. Jerome “patron saint of crabby people” pray for me)

Oh my Friend, I am soooo with you on this. I feel the same way.
Thank goodness that I am in a traditional Catholic parish that doen’t do any of it. But I have to visit other parishes from time to time and I look at these people and think, “It’s about God, not about Community”.

I would feel better if the gladhandling was left outside.

 

[ElizabethJoy]

nianka:

I’ve gotten to the point where I just bow my head and keep my hands together and to myself during the Pater Noster

I have a very difficult time with this, especially if the person next to me is male. I’m not a touchy feely kind of person to begin with and I really, really, really don’t want to hold hands with any man except my husband!

I also really don’t want to offend anyone in the middle of mass. I love my brothers and sisters even though I do not know them - I wouldn’t hurt them for the world.

But we have a “greet your neighbor” thing before the reading of the first gospel AND the sign of peace AND holding hands when my instinct is to fold my hands and pray.

I think I’m going to have to just get over it, though - because it seems that this is going to happen anywhere I go. Or maybe I will gradually learn who else in my parish is like me and start sitting with them?

Elizabeth

 

[msproule]

ElizabethJoy:

I think I’m going to have to just get over it, though - because it seems that this is going to happen anywhere I go.

There is a scattering of parishes in which nobody (or maybe just an extreme minority) holds hands.

Or maybe I will gradually learn who else in my parish is like me and start sitting with them?

This might work. We typically sit in the same area each week and have noticed that a few people around us do not hold hands, either. So it seems that the people around us are following our example or they have moved to get closer to us, just like you suggest!

 

[Steve-o]

I was surprised to see this going on in my new parish and I don’t remember any handholding at church when I was a kid. Luckily, my wife and I had an entire pew to ourselves today, so we were spared the Elmer Gantry affectations. I am also really bothered by the smattering of people who hold out their hands in the Orans fashion, too. Besides, I’m of German descent! We need our personal space!

 

[Confiteor]

I don’t feel obligated to hold hands at the Our Father. A few weeks ago, a woman had written the Ask an Apologist Forum about whether her relationship with a man (not her husband) was adulterous. There were hugs. kisses and handholding involved, but nothing more. The response was that hugs and kisses were permitted among friends, but handholding is something only lover do. To be honest, I found this puzzling as we certainly hold the hands of our young children as we walk in public, elementary school children will hold hands with a partner, and, of course, Catholics in many parishes have been trained to hold hands at the Our Father prayer. As to the sign of peace, some pastors in our area advised their parishioners last winter to bow slightly instead of shaking hands in order to reduce the spread of the flu. Many of them seem to have stayed with the head bow instead of reintroducing the hand shake…a source of germs especially before they all go up to receive in the hand.

 

[rcn]

Archbishop Chaput’s thoughts seem appropriate:
archden.org/dcr/news.php?e=5&s=2&a=22

 

[Shinobu]

I’ve answered this sort of topic many times.

I think we need to not be so cold to one another. If Jesus denied you his hand, how would you feel? Offering someone a plastic hand or some sort of thing like that is just childish and rude. Why can’t anyone just say, “I’m sorry, but I do not feel comfortable holding hands. Please forgive me.”

I also do not think anyone should force you to hold their hand.

We are all so cold and frightened of each other, yet the general population has sex with people they barely know what is wrong with our society?

 

[iwonder]

:crying:

Shinobu:

I’ve answered this sort of topic many times.

I think we need to not be so cold to one another. If Jesus denied you his hand, how would you feel? Offering someone a plastic hand or some sort of thing like that is just childish and rude. Why can’t anyone just say, “I’m sorry, but I do not feel comfortable holding hands. Please forgive me.”

I also do not think anyone should force you to hold their hand.

We are all so cold and frightened of each other, yet the general population has sex with people they barely know what is wrong with our society?

Hey I’m with you on this one. And I’ll go one step further. I don’t think we should be rejoicing to have whole pews to ourselves. If we have a whole pew to ourselves, someone is not there. And that is not something we want, now is it? But maybe the pews are empty because they got a plastic hand?

 

[Catholic_Heart]

We are all so cold and frightened of each other, yet the general population has sex with people they barely know what is wrong with our society?

This is a very good question…While I admit to not always being happy with having to hold hands during the Our Father, I really don’t understand why people are so opposed to the idea. I can take it or leave it.

IMHO it is much ado about nothing…

 

[netmilsmom]

Shinobu:

We are all so cold and frightened of each other, yet the general population has sex with people they barely know what is wrong with our society?

Speak for yourself, my friend. I was a virgin until I was married at 35. Three quarters of the women at my church have had one husband and that man was and is her only lover. The rest regret it.
We don’t hold hands for the Our Father. Hmmmmmm.

I think that touchie-feelie is great if you want it. The fact is that when one person is brave enough to make it know that they don’t like it, others follow. Most people do not like to hold hands with strangers, not in the American Society, at least. When I asked generally what other situation people held hands with strangers, the only answer was at abortion center protests. We are not looked down upon if we don’t hold a strangers hand in any other situation in America.

Just because you feel a need to touch a stranger with your hand, doesn’t mean that everyone does. I would prefer to show my Christianity by touching them with my charity or love.

I think Jesus would know that touching is uncomfortable for some people. Instead of elluding to the lack of Christianity of those who do not like to get intimate with strangers (hand holding is very intimate to some) , how about a little Christian charity yourself?

 

[netmilsmom]

And lets add this for an extra thought…
May 23, 2004, 04:50 PM
Karl Keating
President, Catholic Answers
Join Date: April 1, 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 636

Re: Holding hands at the Lord’s Prayer
In America, we shake hands with one another at the sign of peace. In Japan parishioners bow to one another. In other countries there may be other conventions.

At the sign of peace we’re saying “I’m at peace with you” or “I feel reconciled to you.” We convey that through words (“The peace of Christ be with you”) and through an action that is friendly but not intimate or intrusive (since most of those around us likely will be strangers).

This act of demonstrating reconciliation is undermined by holding hands at the Our Father. That prayer comes immediately before the sign of peace. In those parishes where people hold hands during that prayer, they are engaging in an action that is much more intimate than a handshake.

If we hold hands during the Our Father, it undercuts the significance of the following act, since holding hands trumps shaking hands. The sign of peace withers. A prescribed part of the liturgy (the sign of peace) loses much of its significance (much of its “sign value”) when parishioners hold hands at the Our Father.

(It’s good to say “I love you” to your spouse, but if you say that to everyone you meet on the street, your spouse will feel your words have been devalued.)

Another point: In our culture, hand-holding is approved of when adults hold the hands of young children, when boyfriend and girlfriend hold hands, and when married couples hold hands (though this commonly stops a few weeks after the honeymoon ).

We do not hold hands with strangers to whom we are introduced. We shake hands instead. Holding hands in such a situation would be perceived as too intimate. And in some cases, holding hands even suggests something unsavory, as when we see two men holding hands as they walk down the sidewalk.

Can anyone think of any situation, other than at the Our Father during Mass, in which people commonly hold hands with strangers? I can’t, and I think there is a reason: Hand holding is a sign of a certain intimacy. It’s not something we take lightly.

To hold hands with strangers at Mass strikes me as artificial, and it has become a detriment to a proper appreciation of the liturgy. Yes, it is easy enough to avoid, but I think it remains a problem. It is one kind of problem for those who don’t wish to hold hands, and it is another kind of problem (the problem of not understanding the role of signs in the Mass) for those who like the practice.

 

[ElizabethJoy]

msproule:

We typically sit in the same area each week and have noticed that a few people around us do not hold hands, either. So it seems that the people around us are following our example or they have moved to get closer to us, just like you suggest!

Good news, thank you.

For the people who like holding hands and don’t understand why some of us don’t, it’s not a matter of being cold or unfriendly. I will happily socialize, shake hands, etc. after mass. I especially love the elderly or incapacitated, and will wait on them hand and foot and work to bring them into the socialization. I introduce myself easily and offer help wherever I can with the little things that I know to do - hold doors, push wheelchairs, fetch coffee and such.

But, first, I just don’t want to hold hands with another person when I’m trying to focus on spiritual communion with Christ and His whole church. It’s an interruption of attention and intention.

And second, I don’t want to hold hands with any man except my husband, ever. Nothing cold or unfriendly about it - it implies an intimacy that is simply inappropriate for me - any time, anywhere.

I don’t intend to ruffle anyone’s feathers or hurt anyone else in my comments. I don’t look down on or denigrate those who like holding hands - I even participate rather than offend someone who takes my hand, even though it means my attention is distracted. So, why are the comments toward those of us who don’t like this kind of thing so unkind? I don’t understand.

Elizabeth

 

[Catholic_Heart]

I agree with Karl that holding hands during the Our Father sometimes feels artificial…I sing in the choir, and we always hold hands during this prayer…You just can’t not do it, if you know what I mean…No one would understand. So…I do it, even when I don’t feel like it.

But…I still think there are more important issues to worry about!

 

[Mysty101]

Shinobu:

I’ve answered this sort of topic many times.

Hi Shinobu,

How are you?–I thought it was you that I remembered posting about attending Mass for the first time at Easter.

Yes, many of us have posted many times regarding this.

I think we need to not be so cold to one another. If Jesus denied you his hand, how would you feel? Offering someone a plastic hand or some sort of thing like that is just childish and rude. Why can’t anyone just say, “I’m sorry, but I do not feel comfortable holding hands. Please forgive me.”

I also do not think anyone should force you to hold their hand.

I certainly agree with you from my heart, but more importantly there is no official word on this in liturgical documents (which would be the last word on this) Since the liturgical documents do stress unity, and state that the authority on unspecified matters is the Bishop (who usully passes this authority on to the Pastor of the Parish) it would be good to follow the custom of the Parish where you are attending Mass, in non-abusive situations such as these.

But of course I agree that neither side of the discussion should force the issue.

We are all so cold and frightened of each other, yet the general population has sex with people they barely know what is wrong with our society?

Also, most of us would never mention anything about our own or anyone else’s private intimate life on the internet, and certainly do know that you are not speaking about yourself, but the sad trend in society.

Back to this

Offering someone a plastic hand or some sort of thing like that is just childish and rude

I certainly agree with you on this one. The greatest law is the law of love – Love God, and love your neighbor. It would be wrong to ridicule or poke fun at someone if they were actually doing something wrong, but those who do this because of their own preference is really out of line and certainly not Christian.

1Cor:1:3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, 4who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. 5For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows. 6If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer. 7And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort.

God bless you in your journey.

 

[Katie1723]

Generally if I am with family, I hold hands at the Our Father. If I am alone, I raise my hands. Once though, when I was visiting an out of state church, I sat next to a woman and her small daughter. I was so touched when at the Our Father, this little girl looked at her mama, whispered something and then held MY hand that I got a little teary.
~ Kathy ~

 

[Patrick2340]

Most of the time I am fortunate enough to be able to attend the old Mass. When circumstances are such that I find myself at the Missa Normativa I generally fold my hands and bow my head in prayer at the Pater Noster. Even before I started going to the old Mass, I was never a fan of hand-holding. For me, the Eucharist is the ultimate sign of “community” (I hate that word now…) for Catholics. Our unity with each other is culminated in Holy Communion. There we are one with Christ and one with each other in the Body of Christ in a spiritual way that is far superior to this chain-across-America type of display. At one time the USCCB had a document condemning hand-holding at the Pater, but I can’t seem to find it on their website anymore.

 

[Mot_Juste]

In the “macro” sense, there’s a legitimate discussion to be had about whether we ought to hold hands or not. Karl Keating has a point in his letter. I’m sure whoever introduced hand holding had their point too. Forums like these are fine for talking about it, but the place for decision making is in the parish and in the diocese. If you would like to see the practice changed one way or another, I encourage you to take it up with your pastor, your bishop, or the appropriate councils.

I have no doubt, however, that activism in the pews at mass is the wrong place to effect change. You and the stranger next to you are both at there to worship God. Charity should rule over your desire to correct him for doing it wrong.

If you don’t like hand holding, please do your neighbor the courtesy of putting your hands in front of you, either clasped or pressed together in prayer. You might even close your eyes or bow your head, if that makes it easier for you to deal when your neighbor turns to look for your hand and has that brief puzzled expression. 95% or more of people won’t reach in front of you to forcibly take your hand. Later, when it is time for the sign of peace, please be as warm and smiling and open as you can. You’ll send the right message.

If you do like holding hands, please just be conscious that even though you’re probably used to seeing everyone do it, it’s not something that everyone is comfortable with. Don’t force the issue. There are plenty of people in these forums who don’t like the “orans” posture, but it has a real advantage in this situation. If you, as a hand-holder, put your hands in the up-and-out prayer positions, the message you are sending to your neighbor is “Here is my hand, you may hold it if you like, but if not then I’m already in prayer-position so don’t worry about leaving me hanging.”

–Bill