"Our Father" Handholding/Refusal of Sign of Peace

[Fortiterinre]

I am starting this as a new thread because I have been taken down a peg (a whole peg)! I bragged on these forums not long ago that the key to avoiding involuntary handholding during the Pater Noster was to close eyes and clasp own hands, that no one had ever pried mine apart before. Well, it ALMOST happened. In the MIDDLE of the Our Father yesterday, I received a sharp jab to the ribs wile praying in my usual way. I opened my eyes for a short moment and saw that no one across the church was holding hands, so I deduced that it was an accidental bump. At the end of the Our Father I was treated to a loud denunciation by the woman next to me along with repeated warnings that I not attempt to give her the sign of peace (believe you me, I wouldn’t have dared). The people in the pew behind me reluctantly shook hands with me, I think because I was looking anywhere except my own pew. I am trying to stay light about this, but it was pretty horrible. A whole peg down!

 

[JCPhoenix]

That woman and the entire pew was out of line. Let it go.

They judged you adn yoru actions without even considering that you have good reason for how you behave and carry yourself at Mass. And to refuse the “sign of peace”…well, guess they went to Communion with unforgiveness on their souls. Pray for them and let God judge their hearts.

I’ve had a child insist on holding my hand, and I would not refuse a child (unless I had a cold and did not want to shake/grasp anyone’s hand for that reason.)

Let it go…you did nothing wrong and if people don’t want to forgive you…well, that’s between them and God.

 

[juno24]

Fortiterinre:

I am starting this as a new thread because I have been taken down a peg (a whole peg)! I bragged on these forums not long ago that the key to avoiding involuntary handholding during the Pater Noster was to close eyes and clasp own hands, that no one had ever pried mine apart before. Well, it ALMOST happened. In the MIDDLE of the Our Father yesterday, I received a sharp jab to the ribs wile praying in my usual way. I opened my eyes for a short moment and saw that no one across the church was holding hands, so I deduced that it was an accidental bump. At the end of the Our Father I was treated to a loud denunciation by the woman next to me along with repeated warnings that I not attempt to give her the sign of peace (believe you me, I wouldn’t have dared). The people in the pew behind me reluctantly shook hands with me, I think because I was looking anywhere except my own pew. I am trying to stay light about this, but it was pretty horrible. A whole peg down!

Wow! THE SAME thing happened to me several months ago. The woman did not jab me in the ribs, but she did tap me on the arm while I was in the same posture as you described. After I went back to praying rather than take her hand, I made sure she was the first one I turned to for the sign of peace. She turned up her nose ot me, and turned her back to me. Now the main difference between your incident and mine is that the people around me were shocked at HER actions and were quick to offer me their hands.
I have since thought about my incident, and I believe I inadvertently insulted her and made her feel unwelcome. She must not have thought she was being rude by interrupting the prayer. I will not initiate hand-holding, but I will try not to appear rude if someone else wants to.

 

[Pentecost2005]

juno24:

She must not have thought she was being rude by interrupting the prayer.

 

[netmilsmom]

juno24:

I have since thought about my incident, and I believe I inadvertently insulted her and made her feel unwelcome. She must not have thought she was being rude by interrupting the prayer. I will not initiate hand-holding, but I will try not to appear rude if someone else wants to.

Please Holy Father Benedict XVI, be our guide and tell the American Bishops to give us guidance in this practice. I pray.
And while I’m asking, please guide the rude, misguided or uninformed who are focusing on holding hands with other humans or looking up to heaven with their hands flipped up when they should be focusing on Our Lord on the Altar.
(and while I’m asking could we sprinkle in some Latin to our liturgy as well?)

I know it’s a lot to ask but if our Wonderful Pastor can lead the sheep in our parish to know what is right, then I have all confidence that you, Holy Father could do the same.

(anyone think he reads this forum?)

 

[Liberian]

juno24:

Wow! THE SAME thing happened to me several months ago. The woman did not jab me in the ribs, but she did tap me on the arm while I was in the same posture as you described.

I have since thought about my incident, and I believe I inadvertently insulted her and made her feel unwelcome. She must not have thought she was being rude by interrupting the prayer. I will not initiate hand-holding, but I will try not to appear rude if someone else wants to.

I do the same thing–clasp my hands during the Our Father–and have been tapped on the elbow a few times. What I do when this happens is smile at the person, shake my head slightly, and say “No, thank you.” It seems not to give offense–at least not yet.

• Liberian

 

[Allen537]

I’m not sure what the problem is with holding hands during the Our Father. I have known people who don’t hold hands for whatever reasons, and thats fine. But it seems that it is common culture in the US for the faithful to hold hands during the prayer. I personally don’t have a preference, but what is the real harm in joining hands for this powerful prayer?

 

[Sean_O_L]

Hi Fortiterinre.

I seem to have received a different message from you that the posters do not appear to have received.

Am I correct in believing that it was YOU who refused (or was reluctant) to give/receive the “sign of peace”?

If so, then there is an entirely different response to the question. If not, then, as the others say: let it pass over you.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Actually, Sean, it was during the “Our Father”, NOT the “sign of peace”, that Fort was accosted, and after the Our Father and BEFORE the Sign of Peace Fort was told by the woman not to DARE offer a sign of peace.

Fort was completely innocent of offense in this.

So you’re right with your second response, Fort shouldn’t worry and it was the woman who needs to “rethink” her words and actions.

 

[dumspirospero]

The real harm is that it is not proper and is not called for in the GIRM…therefore it shouldn’t take place…also, that is the kind of stuff you see in a protestant church…if we are going to turn the Mass into a protestant style worship service, then I don’t see why I had to leave the Baptists to spend a year in RCIA, so I could become Catholic…

Allen537:

, but what is the real harm in joining hands for this powerful prayer?

 

[netmilsmom]

Allen537:

I’m not sure what the problem is with holding hands during the Our Father. I have known people who don’t hold hands for whatever reasons, and thats fine. But it seems that it is common culture in the US for the faithful to hold hands during the prayer. I personally don’t have a preference, but what is the real harm in joining hands for this powerful prayer?

Two problems with this…(excluding that it’s not in the GIRM)
First, it makes the prayer lateral instead of to heaven. Jesus is right there on the Altar, by holding hands your focus is with the community.

Second, in the American culture, holding hands is personal. This is the only situation were we are expected to hold hands with a stranger. We shake hands when meeting a stranger, not hold them. That is taken care of with the handshake of peace.
I might be wrong, but I can’t think of another situation where I am expected to hold hands with strangers.

 

[Tietjen]

Fortiterinre:

I am starting this as a new thread because I have been taken down a peg (a whole peg)! I bragged on these forums not long ago that the key to avoiding involuntary handholding during the Pater Noster was to close eyes and clasp own hands, that no one had ever pried mine apart before. Well, it ALMOST happened. In the MIDDLE of the Our Father yesterday, I received a sharp jab to the ribs wile praying in my usual way. I opened my eyes for a short moment and saw that no one across the church was holding hands, so I deduced that it was an accidental bump. At the end of the Our Father I was treated to a loud denunciation by the woman next to me along with repeated warnings that I not attempt to give her the sign of peace (believe you me, I wouldn’t have dared). The people in the pew behind me reluctantly shook hands with me, I think because I was looking anywhere except my own pew. I am trying to stay light about this, but it was pretty horrible. A whole peg down!

Your peg wasn’t lowered in my (for what it’s worth) estimation. I have never had this happen to me and I hope that it never does. However, should it happen, I hope that I will be as charitable as you were. I tend to see myself becoming greatly irritated at being elbowed in my ribs while in prayer. It angers me just hearing about this happening to someone else.

As a side note… if this sort of thing is common, shouldn’t letters be sent to the Priest, Bishop and USCCB asking them to please intercede on behalf on the laity who are being assaulted? Clarification is obviously needed here else, someone may get hurt.
God bless.

 

[Allen537]

dumspirospero:

that is the kind of stuff you see in a protestant church…if we are going to turn the Mass into a protestant style worship service, then I don’t see why I had to leave the Baptists to spend a year in RCIA, so I could become Catholic…

I don’t think that just because we hold hands during the Our Father makes us more like the protestants. If that is your reasoning then we need to go ahead and just throw out everything we got from the Second Vatican Council, we need to stop speaaking in the Vernacular and go back to Latin, throw the lower altar in the garbage and go back to the high alter, turn the preist back around the way he should be becuase we are becoming too much like the protestants. I believe that the Catholic Church is perfect in everything she does, that is the way Christ made it. And I think that just because we may have some physical similarities with the protestants does not make us protestants. What is more important is what we believe, not ***how ***we believe it.

 

[PJR]

I agree. Everything protestants do is not automatically wrong. And keep in mind, many practices that have been held in common for centuries have been thrown out in many FEC’s because it “appears too Catholic”. I think we should watch our prejudice.

If hand holding is incorrect. By all means we should not do it. But citing that protestants do it does not make it incorrect.

I think it became popular because it was an attempt to build community. I don’t think anyone who wishes to hold your hand in Mass means to be offensive to you, and I don’t think it was intended to take away from Christ on the altar.

If someone was put out and rude over being denied, and then refused the sign of peace, they were very wrong.

Allen537:

I don’t think that just because we hold hands during the Our Father makes us more like the protestants. If that is your reasoning then we need to go ahead and just throw out everything we got from the Second Vatican Council, we need to stop speaaking in the Vernacular and go back to Latin, throw the lower altar in the garbage and go back to the high alter, turn the preist back around the way he should be becuase we are becoming too much like the protestants. I believe that the Catholic Church is perfect in everything she does, that is the way Christ made it. And I think that just because we may have some physical similarities with the protestants does not make us protestants. What is more important is what we believe, not ***how ***we believe it.

 

[netmilsmom]

PJR:

I think it became popular because it was an attempt to build community. I don’t think it was intended to take away from Christ on the altar.

.

Thank you to Devoted for sending me this…

May 23, 2004, 04:50 PM
Karl Keating
President, Catholic Answers
Join Date: April 1, 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 636

Re: Holding hands at the Lord’s Prayer
In America, we shake hands with one another at the sign of peace. In Japan parishioners bow to one another. In other countries there may be other conventions.

At the sign of peace we’re saying “I’m at peace with you” or “I feel reconciled to you.” We convey that through words (“The peace of Christ be with you”) and through an action that is friendly but not intimate or intrusive (since most of those around us likely will be strangers).

This act of demonstrating reconciliation is undermined by holding hands at the Our Father. That prayer comes immediately before the sign of peace. In those parishes where people hold hands during that prayer, they are engaging in an action that is much more intimate than a handshake.

If we hold hands during the Our Father, it undercuts the significance of the following act, since holding hands trumps shaking hands. The sign of peace withers. A prescribed part of the liturgy (the sign of peace) loses much of its significance (much of its “sign value”) when parishioners hold hands at the Our Father.

(It’s good to say “I love you” to your spouse, but if you say that to everyone you meet on the street, your spouse will feel your words have been devalued.)

Another point: In our culture, hand-holding is approved of when adults hold the hands of young children, when boyfriend and girlfriend hold hands, and when married couples hold hands (though this commonly stops a few weeks after the honeymoon ).

We do not hold hands with strangers to whom we are introduced. We shake hands instead. Holding hands in such a situation would be perceived as too intimate. And in some cases, holding hands even suggests something unsavory, as when we see two men holding hands as they walk down the sidewalk.

Can anyone think of any situation, other than at the Our Father during Mass, in which people commonly hold hands with strangers? I can’t, and I think there is a reason: Hand holding is a sign of a certain intimacy. It’s not something we take lightly.

To hold hands with strangers at Mass strikes me as artificial, and it has become a detriment to a proper appreciation of the liturgy. Yes, it is easy enough to avoid, but I think it remains a problem. It is one kind of problem for those who don’t wish to hold hands, and it is another kind of problem (the problem of not understanding the role of signs in the Mass) for those who like the practice.

 

[juno24]

Liberian:

I do the same thing–clasp my hands during the Our Father–and have been tapped on the elbow a few times. What I do when this happens is smile at the person, shake my head slightly, and say “No, thank you.” It seems not to give offense–at least not yet.

• Liberian

That is EXACTLY what I did, and the woman took such offense you would have thought I spit at her. When she turned her back to me at the sign of peace, all I could think was, OK, well, peace be with you anyway. I did not say it outloud, though. And as I said, everyone else was shocked at her attitude. Oh well.

 

[juno24]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Please Holy Father Benedict XVI, be our guide and tell the American Bishops to give us guidance in this practice. I pray.
And while I’m asking, please guide the rude, misguided or uninformed who are focusing on holding hands with other humans or looking up to heaven with their hands flipped up when they should be focusing on Our Lord on the Altar.
(and while I’m asking could we sprinkle in some Latin to our liturgy as well?)

I know it’s a lot to ask but if our Wonderful Pastor can lead the sheep in our parish to know what is right, then I have all confidence that you, Holy Father could do the same.

(anyone think he reads this forum?)

I second the request! I don’t know if the Holy Father reads these forums or not, but I sure would like the Bishops to clarify once and for all whether the practice of hand holding is or is not allowed. I would rather focus 100 percent on Jesus on the altar and not have to worry that my arms are getting tired, or if I will be in pain for very long after the prayer (since I do have shoulder problems), etc, etc. I have no problem with others holding hands if that will help them in their worship, but I know it detracts from mine.

 

[netmilsmom]

juno24:

or if I will be in pain for very long after the prayer (since I do have shoulder problems), etc, etc

My heart goes out to you.
It used to make me uncomfortable to see the seniors in my old parish wincing in pain as another person pulled his/her hand up.

One time, we sat next to a lady in a wheelchair. The Our Father started and I could see her gently move her hand for my daughter to take it. As I always did, I took my daughter’s hands and told her to close her eyes and think of Our Lord. The lady gave me a huge smile.
Sometimes community is not doing what everyone else is doing.

 

[jleary]

I agree with Allen537. While it is an individual’s choice to hold hands, it is also, unfortunately, an individual choice to react to people in an inappropriate manner. With Christ present on the altar, and an individual wanting in their own way to share that love with you, your subsequent reaction will go a long way in showing Christ where you are in your journey in the desert. I fully respect anyone who chooses not to hold hands, but please don’t think any less of the people who may want to share what they believe is Christ’s love…It was Christ who was “moved with compassion” for others, never denying His love, and always willing to share…St Peter said “You are a chose race a royal priesthood”…everyone one of us…

 

[CarolAnnSFO]

I’m wondering, did we even get the hand-holding thing from Vatican II? Or was it just something that somebody made up along the way?

I’m uncomfortable with hand-holding (although I’ll “do as the Romans do” unless I have a cold). I don’t like the hand shaking at the Sign of Peace, either. I shake hands with someone when I am introduced to that person. I don’t shake the hands of every stranger I encounter on the street (and the fact that we do this in church always makes me think of politicians glad-handing everyone in sight). I would much prefer to bow, but I guess I’m in the minority.

I had an arm injury a couple of years ago, and my right arm was in a sling for several weeks. I couldn’t do the hand-holding or hand-shaking (I needed to hold on to the back of the pew with my left hand, for balance), and I didn’t miss it at all!

But refusing to offer someone any sign of peace because that person didn’t want to hold hands, is just childish and uncharitable, in my opinion.