Our father just a blueprint?

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Shaolen

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How do I refute a protestant claim that the Our Father prayer was Jesus just showing us how to pray, as in the structure and not that we were to copy those words exactly?
 
Shaolen said:
How do I refute a protestant claim that the Our Father prayer was Jesus just showing us how to pray, as in the structure and not that we were to copy those words exactly?
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Ask him if he takes the Bible literally. He will say yes, of course. Then ask him to turn to Luke 11:

Luke 11:1-2 He was praying in a certain place, and when he ceased, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” 2 And he said to them, “When you pray, say:“Father, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. . . .
Jesus himself says When you pray say . . . . So the words to pray are those He, Himself gave us.
 
Ignatius said:
Ask him if he takes the Bible literally. He will say yes, of course. Then ask him to turn to Luke 11:

Luke 11:1-2 He was praying in a certain place, and when he ceased, one of his disciples said to him, “Lord, teach us to pray, as John taught his disciples.” 2 And he said to them, “When you pray, say:“Father, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. . . .
Jesus himself says When you pray say . . . . So the words to pray are those He, Himself gave us.
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Exactly! I love how people take the bible literally until they dont want to. Of course, the Lords Prayer could be a framework for ones own extemporaneous prayer. And most likely Christ was suggesting that when we pray we frame our prayers according to the Lords Prayer. But why not use the exact words Christ gave us?? Do we really think we can improve on that? Where does the bible say we should NOT use Christ’s exact words.

Sorry to get snippy, but I get so frustrated with the tired old arguments that come out of some Protestant traditions. They are just so ridiculous some times , its almost as though they really cant hear what the heck they are saying out loud.
 
Another case of someone trying to split things apart…making a “both and” into an “either or”…

That is the approach that I would take. There is really nothing to refute. The Our Father is a wonderful prayer recited just as it is. It is also a wonderful blueprint for building our prayer life.

Peace
James
 
Shaolen said:
How do I refute a protestant claim that the Our Father prayer was Jesus just showing us how to pray, as in the structure and not that we were to copy those words exactly?
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Protestants are often literalists. I would simply quote scripture at them. Matthew 6:9-11.
Verse 9 says (right before Jesus starts saying the “Our Father”, “This then is how you should pray.” You could possibly toy with the words “how you should”, but I don’t see it being strong enough to completely discount a literal citation of the words. Pray like Jesus said, period. In addition, there are Protestants that do say the Lords prayer verbatim.
 
Jubilarian said:
Protestants are often literalists. I would simply quote scripture at them. Matthew 6:9-11.
Verse 9 says (right before Jesus starts saying the “Our Father”, “This then is how you should pray.” How can that verse really be toyed with? Pray like Jesus said, period.
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Your attitude seems to be just as literalistic as what you accused of the Protestants. 🤷 Jesus himself didn’t use just those words to pray (as evidenced in the Garden of Gethsemane or on the cross) As a Jew he would have prayed the psalms (among other Jewish prayers), which I often use myself when praying. There’s nothing wrong with using your own words **or **those in scripture, it only matters what’s in your heart and that you aren’t just reciting words without thinking about their meaning.
 
seagal said:
There’s nothing wrong with using your own words **or **those in scripture, it only matters what’s in your heart and that you aren’t just reciting words without thinking about their meaning.
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Yup.
 
Since we just had the feast of Christ the King, you might want to look at “The Lord’s Prayer and the New Exodus” by Brant Pitre. I’m pretty sure he’s done an audio talk about this also, but I can’t remember where I heard it. Probably salvationhistory.com.

Anyway, it’s about Jesus talking about Messianic and Kingdom stuff through the “Our Father,” and it’s pretty interesting.
 
hey thanks you guys. I have a feeling the root of his issue is the “vain repetition” problem but I’ve already asked about that on this forum
 
seagal said:
Your attitude seems to be just as literalistic as what you accused of the Protestants. 🤷 Jesus himself didn’t use just those words to pray (as evidenced in the Garden of Gethsemane or on the cross) As a Jew he would have prayed the psalms (among other Jewish prayers), which I often use myself when praying. There’s nothing wrong with using your own words **or **those in scripture, it only matters what’s in your heart and that you aren’t just reciting words without thinking about their meaning.
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You seem to be jumping the gun. In no way am I inferring that an individual can’t pray in his own words, I am simply supporting the fact that the Lords prayer was mouthed by Christ and it is a perfectly acceptable way to pray.

Contrary to what you may think, Catholics at times need to take portions of scripture literally, just like Protestants. The difference is that Protestants do it more often.
 
Shaolen said:
hey thanks you guys. I have a feeling the root of his issue is the “vain repetition” problem but I’ve already asked about that on this forum
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Ah, Like in Revelation 4:8 Is this what they mean by vain repetition: " and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." Rev 4:8

Or like in Psalm 118, “His mercy endures forever”, we’ll use the King James Version for this discussion.
** Psalm 118 King James Version (KJV)**

118 O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: because his mercy endureth for ever.
2 Let Israel now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.
3 Let the house of Aaron now say, that his mercy endureth for ever.
4 Let them now that fear the Lord say, that his mercy endureth for ever.
5 I called upon the Lord in distress: the Lord answered me, and set me in a large place.
6 The Lord is on my side; I will not fear: what can man do unto me?
7 The Lord taketh my part with them that help me: therefore shall I see my desire upon them that hate me.
8 It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.
9 It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in princes.
10 All nations compassed me about: but in the name of the Lord will I destroy them.
11 They compassed me about; yea, they compassed me about: but in the name of the Lord I will destroy them.
12 They compassed me about like bees: they are quenched as the fire of thorns: for in the name of the Lord I will destroy them.
13 Thou hast thrust sore at me that I might fall: but the Lord helped me.
14 The Lord is my strength and song, and is become my salvation.
15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the Lord doeth valiantly.
16 The right hand of the Lord is exalted: the right hand of the Lord doeth valiantly.
17 I shall not die, but live, and declare the works of the Lord.
18 The Lord hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death.
19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the Lord:
20 This gate of the Lord, into which the righteous shall enter.
21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation.
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the Lord’s doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.
24 This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.
25 Save now, I beseech thee, O Lord: O Lord, I beseech thee, send now prosperity.
26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the Lord: we have blessed you out of the house of the Lord.
27 God is the Lord, which hath shewed us light: bind the sacrifice with cords, even unto the horns of the altar.
28 Thou art my God, and I will praise thee: thou art my God, I will exalt thee.
29 O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.

Or Like in Heaven when Creatures are continually before the Throne of God and " and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." Rev 4:8
 
Jubilarian said:
Protestants are often literalists. I would simply quote scripture at them. Matthew 6:9-11.
Verse 9 says (right before Jesus starts saying the “Our Father”, “This then is how you should pray.” You could possibly toy with the words “how you should”, but I don’t see it being strong enough to completely discount a literal citation of the words. Pray like Jesus said, period. In addition, there are Protestants that do say the Lords prayer verbatim.
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Which literal translation do you want to use? Matthew 6:9-13 or Luke 11:2-4?
 
Jubilarian said:
You seem to be jumping the gun. In no way am I inferring that an individual can’t pray in his own words, I am simply supporting the fact that the Lords prayer was mouthed by Christ and it is a perfectly acceptable way to pray.

Contrary to what you may think, Catholics at times need to take portions of scripture literally, just like Protestants. The difference is that Protestants do it more often.
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Sorry if I jumped on you :o I was reacting to the way you said “pray like Jesus said. Period” which seemed pretty strict and literal.
 
seagal said:
Sorry if I jumped on you :o I was reacting to the way you said “pray like Jesus said. Period” which seemed pretty strict and literal.
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The outcome of the two verses you presented aren’t different.

It would be like asking , what literal translation of “this is my body” should Catholics embrace, Luke 22:19 or Matt. 26:26? Both are taken to be strict and literal.
 
Jubilarian said:
The outcome of the two verses you presented aren’t different.

It would be like asking , what literal translation of “this is my body” should Catholics embrace, Luke 22:19 or Matt. 26:26? Both are taken to be strict and literal.
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I think you meant to quote the one guys who asked which one you want to take literal?
 
Of course, it is a blueprint for prayer. We are not bound to pray only the Our Father word for word. Christ himself varied it between the two instances recorded in Matthew and Luke. On the other hand, the recorded prayers are nearly the same, so it’s not a good argument against saying the Lord’s prayer.

I guess he doesn’t like the Psalms much either 😦

This translation from the Aramaic is a hoax. If you search, you might be able to find some posts from patrick457 on this.
 
I used to follow a preacher who wrote a whole book on the Our Father as a blueprint, called ‘The Pattern Prayer’. I also imbibed the idea that it was not supposed to be prayed as a set prayer, but I learned it as a child at a church school and have taught my own children to say it. I think I was warned off it as ‘praying, parrot fashion’ without engaging brain and spirit. That is not the way I view it now, but I have a great many friends who would see it that way.
 
Eruvande said:
I used to follow a preacher who wrote a whole book on the Our Father as a blueprint, called ‘The Pattern Prayer’. I also imbibed the idea that it was not supposed to be prayed as a set prayer, but I learned it as a child at a church school and have taught my own children to say it. I think I was warned off it as ‘praying, parrot fashion’ without engaging brain and spirit. That is not the way I view it now, but I have a great many friends who would see it that way.
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The “warning” has merit. However, it too can be taken too far.
Sometimes we can become parrot like, speaking words without engaging brain or spirit. Certainly we should guard against such things.
On the other hand using set prayers can give us words when we have none.
Set prayers can allow us to recollect our minds and even can help us to meditate on God’s great Glory and mystery.

Like so many other things it is not an either/or, but a both/and.

Peace
James
 
I have some doubt as to whether your professor is the author of this so-called translation. It is posted many places online so it is unlikely that it came from your lecture notes, or else your professor’s translation is widespread outside of the classroom. What is more likely is that you were looking online for an Aramaic Pater Noster that corresponded to what your professor taught in class and were misled by the person that posted it. Correct me if my assumption is wrong and you actually did copy that from a link provided by your professor.

There is also the fact that there is no extant 1st Century Aramaic Pater Noster, especially not one in the dialect that Christ would have spoken. If I am not mistaken, that is.

You can find the prayer you posted as “Exhibit 1” in this article. The author is a specialist in Galilean Aramaic.

aramaicnt.org/2007/06/09/o-father-mother-birther-of-the-cosmos/

Here is also a blog post by patrick457 where he breaks down the Syriac words.

sacrificium-laudis.blogspot.jp/2008/07/our-fatherbirther-of-cosmos.html
 
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