Our Father posture

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FrDavid96 said:
There is no such history. It doesn’t exist. … There is no evidence of it
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You may not agree with the conclusion, but this is evidence, by the very definition of the word:
I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation - 1 Timothy 2:8
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FrDavid96 said:
It can also be used to grow thorns from fruit trees.
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That is a good point. Not everything that grows is good. I really cannot have an opinion on this. I have a personal bias against charismatic stuff. If something like this posture were ever changed, as in prescribed, I will do what I am told, but I am uncomfortable with it.
 
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pnewton said:
You may not agree with the conclusion, but this is evidence, by the very definition of the word:
I desire therefore that the men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting; in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation - 1 Timothy 2:8
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St Paul was not composing liturgical laws or norms

Really, you know better than to try to draw that conclusion. I know you do.

You know that people can search scriptures and find all kinds of lines saying “do this” or “do that” and those are not liturgical norms. In one of the Gospels, after the Last Supper Christ says that anyone who does not have a sword should buy one. Surely, we don’t take that as a liturgical norm that everyone attend Mass wearing a sword.

I’m not going to dispute that St Paul wrote what he wrote. However, the fact remains that the orans position has always been a gesture reserved to the presider in Western liturgy. The early Church did no see St Paul’s words as being liturgical instruction, nor has the Church ever seen them that way. Why should we change that now?
That is a good point. Not everything that grows is good. I really cannot have an opinion on this. I have a personal bias against charismatic stuff. If something like this posture were ever changed, as in prescribed, I will do what I am told, but I am uncomfortable with it.
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I won’t argue with you here.
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This is a really interesting thread. I’ve learned a lot from the responses here.

It’s mixed at my parish. Some do it and others don’t. I’ve noticed that the people who come just on Christmas and Easter are much more likely to do it than the people who go to Mass regularly. I’ve only seen a couple of people do it at the TLM. I never liked doing it just because my arms would get tired. 😄
 
Perhaps a better question is, after a priest has graciously replied to this thread the correct answer, why do subsequent posts try to diminish the fact that those in the pews are in fact aping the priest ?

It’s one thing if this is going on in a parish and the priest (s) do not correct the laity from the pulpit in regards to this matter. It’s another thing if after the question has been answered by a priest on a thread, it appears his answer is ignored.

I’m not directing this reply to you personally, but that’s just how I see it.
 
CradleRC58 said:
Perhaps a better question is, after a priest has graciously replied to this thread the correct answer, why do subsequent posts try to diminish the fact that those in the pews are in fact aping the priest ?

It’s one thing if this is going on in a parish and the priest (s) do not correct the laity from the pulpit in regards to this matter. It’s another thing if after the question has been answered by a priest on a thread, it appears his answer is ignored.
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Two respected priests have participated in this thread and have given very different opinions. To agree with one of them is to ignore the advice of the other. Why do you chastise for ignoring Father David, yet not give praise for accepting the answer given by Don Ruggero? This is clearly a matter in which intelligent thoughtful and well-meaning individuals will disagree.
 
Correct in your eyes. I happen to agree with Don Ruggero
 
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Disclaimer:
I have no big issue with the laity/orans thing. Half or more of our thoroughly modern parish does this. Some are full palms up, some are half palms, a few are invoking the Holy Spirit with palms and eye to the ceiling. Ok…
I personally don’t. I will hold hands if those around me wish. I do what ever brings peace to those around me. When alone in the pew I fold my hands.
I am not going to die on this particular hill.

Bigger issue: there is a false sense of egalitarianism at work in our culture which denies the uniqueness of every person and the uniqueness of various vocations, including that of priest.

“If he or she can do it, I by rights should be able to do it also”. No, just no.

It is good to recognize that persons are unique in their personalities and vocations, and yes, liturgical roles.
Our bodies, our postures, all the physical acts we do, reflect who we are as unique persons in unique vocations.
We need to keep this in sight, and the Mass is one of the better places to do this.
Note: this is nothing like a call to rigidity. It opens the door to the transcendence of the Mass and the people around us.

We are all human beings, but we are not all “the same”.
 
Can we create a… keeping your hands together old school style during mass versus not topic now? Seems like we fully explored this oran’s posture for at least 2 weeks into the future. ☺️
 
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CilladeRoma said:
Correct in your eyes. I happen to agree with Don Ruggero
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Personally, I would very pleased if the United States Bishops Conference would simply seek the clarification. The Holy See has already made clear to other countries that the Orans posture is perfectly acceptable for the laity to use in the liturgy…and I am sure the Holy See would do so for the Americans since there is already a dramatic precedent for the Americans misunderstanding the rubrics at the beginning of 21st century.
 
babochka said:
Two respected priests have participated in this thread and have given very different opinions. To agree with one of them is to ignore the advice of the other. Why do you chastise for ignoring Father David, yet not give praise for accepting the answer given by Don Ruggero? This is clearly a matter in which intelligent thoughtful and well-meaning individuals will disagree.
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Of the American Bishops I have had the pleasure to meet, I have had a great esteem for Archbishop Chaput going all the way back to when he was the Bishop of Rapid City-in-South Dakota. He addressed the issue well when he was Archbishop of Denver – an address we subsequently had occasion to speak about because it had been sent to me – and I have kept his words in an electronic file across the years because his treatment was particularly pastoral, as well as exact, in its formulation.
The celebrant invites us to pray the words of Jesus in the “Our Father.” This is the prayer Jesus Himself taught us, and because of that, it’s the model prayer for the Church. How should we pray it? A lot has been said in popular writing about our gestures at this point of the Mass. Do we fold our hands, or hold them outstretched, or hold hands with those around us? Some people have surprisingly strong feelings about this issue. Our answer to this question needs to come from the Church’s understanding of this moment in the Mass.

The priest stands with his arms outstretched as the prayer begins. The assembly should also stand. There are no options for gestures listed in the General Instruction for this part of the Mass. For many persons, folding their hands during the “Our Father” is the best way to express their prayer. For others, they may hold their hands outstretched. Still others hold hands.

None of these gestures is mandated or forbidden by the Church. So our guiding principles should be respect for the dignity of the Mass, and respect for the freedom of our fellow worshipers.

Some people feel that holding hands during the “Our Father” enhances a sense of community. This is perfectly appropriate — so long as it can be done with dignity and without the unseemly acrobatics that sometimes ensue.

For other people, holding hands is a kind of intimacy they reserve for family members. It makes them uncomfortable to hold hands during Mass, and they prefer not to do it. This is also perfectly appropriate. A parish may have several ways of praying the “Our Father,” depending on the people who take part in a specific Mass. No one should feel coerced, and the beauty of the liturgy should always be observed.
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pnewton said:
It was encouraged by St. Paul as a posture for prayer
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Indeed. The orans posture is part of the heritage that we received from Judaism. Its recovery, as a prayer posture for everyone, is something for which to be very grateful in the post-Conciliar Church
 
pianistclare said:
Can I just say (without embarrassing you) that many of us so appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut and patience
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Thank you for the compliment. It is very kind, @pianistclare.

I have to say, honestly, that I really do not find the forum in 2018 to be either what Karl Keating described to me when I met him years ago and he explained this project to me – or to be what I signed up for a few years ago, after I retired. It has become something decidedly different.

That said, Catholic Answers is exceedingly blessed to reside within the Diocese of San Diego – and there is no one better for them to look to than the personal example and the teaching of His Excellency, the Most Reverend Robert McElroy, who studied at the Gregorian, and is a most exceptional and gifted bishop…especially when it comes to liturgy as well as his work in ecumenism.
 
CradleRC58 said:
Perhaps a better question is, after a priest has graciously replied to this thread the correct answer, why do subsequent posts try to diminish the fact that those in the pews are in fact aping the priest ?
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They are not “aping” the priest. There is nothing to correct in using the Orans posture, since it is a venerable posture of prayer.
 
In the Roman Rite, the so-called “orans” posture developed organically as a posture reserved to the priest.

Thus we note that the priest is assigned this posture in the Missal, but not the deacon.
 
“In eucharistic celebrations deacons and non-ordained members of the faithful may not pronounce prayers — e.g. especially the eucharistic prayer, with its concluding doxology — or any other parts of the liturgy reserved to the celebrant priest. Neither may deacons or non-ordained members of the faithful use gestures or actions which are proper to the same priest celebrant. It is a grave abuse for any member of the non-ordained faithful to “quasi preside” at the Mass while leaving only that minimal participation to the priest which is necessary to secure validity” (ICP Practical Provisions 6 §2).
 
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