Our Father Prayer and additional wording in Matthew and Luke's Gospel

[J.R]

I recently saw in the news that a document contianing what is believed to be the oldest known “Our Father…”, was given to the Pope. Two questions;

What is the name of the document and does it contain the words, “and the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours now and forever.”?

Thanks God Bless all here.

 

[Seatuck]

Older than the Didache?

 

[tee_eff_em]

Ancient papyrus donated to the Vatican

VATICAN CITY, JAN. 24, 2007 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI received as a gift to the Holy See one of the most ancient manuscripts of the Gospels, an artifact that demonstrates Scripture’s historical actuality.

The Pope was given the 14-15 Bodmer Papyrus (P75), dated between A.D. 175 and 225, on Monday by Frank Hanna and his family, of the United States.

“The papyrus contains about half of each of the Gospels of Luke and John. It was written in Egypt and perhaps used as a liturgical book,” explained Cardinal Jean-Louis Tauran, archivist and librarian of the Holy Roman Church, during the audience.

…]

The oldest transcription of the Our Father, as recounted by Luke, is found in this papyrus.

tee

 

[J.R]

Thanks tee, but can you answer the 2nd question of mine?

 

[Manfred]

Thanks tee, but can you answer the 2nd question of mine?

J.R.,

I believe that it is only with Matthew’s Gospel, not Luke’s, that the ending to which you refer is usually associated. I say, “usually” because this ending only appears in those translations based on the Textus Receptus, namely, the King James and the New King James versions.

Manfred

 

[thistle]

From The Didache which was written around 70AD to 100AD.

Chapter 8. Fasting and Prayer (the Lord’s Prayer). But let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and fifth day of the week. Rather, fast on the fourth day and the Preparation (Friday). Do not pray like the hypocrites, but rather as the Lord commanded in His Gospel, like this:
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily (needful) bread, and forgive us our debt as we also forgive our debtors. And bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (or, evil); for Thine is the power and the glory for ever…
Pray this three times each day.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Is there an extant copy of the Didache, from AD 70-100? Or otherwise prior to AD 225?

tee

 

[thistle]

Okay so I fully understand, are we talking about where the Our Father first appeared with the “the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours now and forever” or are we talking about the oldest surviving original document or oldest surviving copy document with that wording because these are different things. It seems clear that these words first appeared in The Didache but whether there is a surviving copy of that older than 225AD I don’t know.

 

[J.R]

Okay so I fully understand, are we talking about where the Our Father first appeared with the “the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours now and forever” or are we talking about the oldest surviving original document or oldest surviving copy document with that wording because these are different things. It seems clear that these words first appeared in The Didache but whether there is a surviving copy of that older than 225AD I don’t know.

Thistle thanks for responding. I’m talking about where and when the first, “the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours now and forever”, appeared with the Our Father. I know about the Didache I have a copy. The reason I ask is a priest giving our New Testament class stated that the above quote never appeared in the original and was added during the copying process. He said that the qoute being part of the Mass (the doxology) and it somehow became part of the prayer in the text.

 

[thistle]

Thistle thanks for responding. I’m talking about where and when the first, “the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours now and forever”, appeared with the Our Father. I know about the Didache I have a copy. The reason I ask is a priest giving our New Testament class stated that the above quote never appeared in the original and was added during the copying process. He said that the qoute being part of the Mass (the doxology) and it somehow became part of the prayer in the text.

Can you ask the priest what his source and evidence is? How does he know?

 

[Evan]

The priest’s statement agrees with what I have read in both protestant and Catholic sources:

"The doxology at the end of the Our Father, "For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever. Amen," although found in almost all the late Greek mss., is not found in any early Greek mss. And is certainly not part of the original text. It is a liturgical addition." (Encyclopedic Dictionary of The Bible, copyright 1963, Luuis F. Hartman, p1687)

"The doxology, though missing in the older and best manuscripts of Matthew and not original to the Lord’s Prayer, is a fitting conclusion to the prayer." (Harper’s Bible Dictionary, Paul J. Achtemeier, Copyright 1985, p.576

"The doxology that concludes the prayer (Matt.6:13b, AV) is omitted in RSV, because it does not appear in the oldest and best MSS.; it seems not to have been an original part of the prayer, but represents a liturgical addition." (The New Westminster Dictionary of the Bible, Henry Snyder Gehman, Copyright 1965,p.567)

"Study of the Greek manuscripts shows that the doxology that appears at the end of the Matthean form in some translations is not original."(Holman Bible Dictionary, Trent C. Butler, Copyright 1991, p.893)

"This doxology was probably not in the original Gospels."(Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible, David Noel Freedman, Copyright 2000,p.822)

"The doxology in Matthew, which constitues and affirmation of faith, is lacking in the lending MSS and is generally regarded as a scribal addition derived from ancient liturgical usage." (The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary, Merrill C. Tenney Copyright 1967,p.491)

 

[J.R]

Evan,
I am qiute impressed. My I ask are all those sources in your private library? If not would you be so kind to let me know how you found all of them?
Thank You and God Bless,
J.R.

 

[lak611]

From Adam Clarke’s commentary, “For thine is the kingdom, etc. - The whole of this doxology is rejected by Wetstein, Griesbach, and the most eminent critics. The authorities on which it is rejected may be seen in Griesbach and, Wetstein, particularly in the second edition of Griesbach’s Testament, who is fully of opinion that it never made a part of the sacred text. It is variously written in several MSS., and omitted by most of the fathers, both Greek and Latin. As the doxology is at least very ancient, and was in use among the Jews, as well as all the other petitions of this excellent prayer, it should not, in my opinion, be left out of the text, merely because some MSS. have omitted it, and it has been variously written in others. See various forms of this doxology, taken from the ancient Jewish writers, in Lightfoot and Schoettgen.”

 

[Mannyfit75]

I heard that the Protestant Bible added new words in the Our Father Prayer.

and Compare this to other translations of the Bible.

Douy Rheims Catholic Bible

Thus therefore shall you pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our supersubstantial bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen. Matthew 6:9-13

King James Protestant Bible

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen

New King James Protestant Bible

Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

New American Bible (Catholic)

This is how you are to pray: Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven. Give us today our daily bread;
and forgive us our debts, 9 as we forgive our debtors;
and do not subject us to the final test, but deliver us from the evil one.

RSV Catholic Bible

Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come.
Thy will be done, On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
And forgive us our debts,
As we also have forgiven our debtors; And lead us not into temptation,But deliver us from evil.

As you can see. The Catholic Our Father does not have For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen

Both from the Gospel of Matthew.

Luke has doesn’t have it in both the Catholic and Protestant Bible.

Luke 11:2-4

And he said to them, "When you pray, say: “Father, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread; and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive every one who is indebted to us; and lead us not into temptation.”

Luke 11:2-4 King James Bible Protestant

And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Why did the Protestant added the addition words in the prayer, while the Our Father prayer in KJV in Luke does not have the For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen

Why was it added, and what reason?

 

[water]

Matthew 6:9-13

But in a Catholic mass, after the Our Father prayer, the priest says something, then we say:

“For the Kingdom, the power, and glory are yours now and forever.Amen”.

Is this why the Our Father prayer gets the part from?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Matthew 6:9-13

But in a Catholic mass, after the Our Father prayer, the priest says something, then we say:

“For the Kingdom, the power, and glory are yours now and forever.Amen”.

Is this why the Our Father prayer gets the part from?

We say that after the priest says,

Priest: ** Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ**

All: For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever.

In the Mass it is not part of the Our Father Prayer.

What was the original Greek? Was it there or not.

 

[water]

I don’t really know if the Greek version has it.

 

[lak611]

It’s not Protestant. The original version comes from the Didache. "The Didache 8-10

[trans. Kirsopp Lake]

VIII

1. Let not your fasts be with the hypocrites, for they fast on Mondays and Thursdays, but do you fast on Wednesdays and Fridays. 2. And do not pray as the hypocrites, but as the Lord commanded in his Gospel, pray thus: “Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy Name, thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, as in Heaven so also upon earth; give us today our daily bread, and forgive us our debt as we forgive our debtors, and lead us not into trial, but deliver us from the Evil One, for thine is the power and the glory for ever.” 3. Pray thus three times a day."
   bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/sites/partners/cbaa_seminar/didache.htm

 

[Eileen_T]

I heard somewhere that some over-zealous monk added the words by mistake.

 

[lak611]

I heard somewhere that some over-zealous monk added the words by mistake.

I don’t think monastic life was fully developed at the time that the Didache was written, but I could be wrong. If I am, please correct me.