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Texan_in_DC
Guest
Does anyone know why the Our Father is shorter than the Lords Prayer? I would love to know the history of each.
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wardrandolph
Guest
Hello,If your referring to “for thine is the kingdom,power and the glory forever”,these words are believed to be a later addition to the original text.Hope this helps.
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Verbum
Guest
Hi Texan,
The version of the “Our Father” that Protestants generally use originates from some Greek manuscripts of the Gospels that incorporated the doxology (prayer of praise) that you talk about. Way back, some copyist, used to hearing the “Our Father” ending with the doxology at Mass, thought that some other copyist had forgotten it.
Therefore, the doxology is not part of the Bible. It is nevertheless a nice way of ending this prayer taught us by Our Lord.
Critical editions of the New Testament (published by scholars who specialize in the science of manuscripts) do not include the doxology in the main text, but list it, with the familly of manuscritps that have it, in the critical apparatus (variant readintgs of the Bible).
You will, of course have noticed that the New Mass has re-instated the doxology, not immediately at the end of the Our Father, but following an intervening prayer.
Verbum
The version of the “Our Father” that Protestants generally use originates from some Greek manuscripts of the Gospels that incorporated the doxology (prayer of praise) that you talk about. Way back, some copyist, used to hearing the “Our Father” ending with the doxology at Mass, thought that some other copyist had forgotten it.
Therefore, the doxology is not part of the Bible. It is nevertheless a nice way of ending this prayer taught us by Our Lord.
Critical editions of the New Testament (published by scholars who specialize in the science of manuscripts) do not include the doxology in the main text, but list it, with the familly of manuscritps that have it, in the critical apparatus (variant readintgs of the Bible).
You will, of course have noticed that the New Mass has re-instated the doxology, not immediately at the end of the Our Father, but following an intervening prayer.
Verbum
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DanteAlighieri
Guest
Also, are not the terms “The Our Father” and “The Lord’s Prayer” interchangeable, regardless of whether one includes the doxology?
Peace,
Dante
Peace,
Dante
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FrankLawrence
Guest
I believe the doxology is included in the Didache.
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YADA
Guest
Very good answer regarding the history of the doxology…
Yes People often refer to the “Our Father” prayer as the Lord’s Prayer…one and the same prayer [which can be prayed with or without the doxology].
Protestants usually use the doxology at all times…
Catholics generally only pray the doxology at Mass and in Ecumenical settings…
And the doxology is found in the Didache…probably the earliest Christian writing to include the doxology [according to some scripture scholars and an opinion I hold - not that it matters]
Yes People often refer to the “Our Father” prayer as the Lord’s Prayer…one and the same prayer [which can be prayed with or without the doxology].
Protestants usually use the doxology at all times…
Catholics generally only pray the doxology at Mass and in Ecumenical settings…
And the doxology is found in the Didache…probably the earliest Christian writing to include the doxology [according to some scripture scholars and an opinion I hold - not that it matters]
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Church_Militant
Guest
Right…in fact, you’ll find that of all modern English versions, it is not included in the text except in the KJV, in which it is actually a copyist error.
The Didache does include that doxology, but it is not found in any of the earliest and best manuscripts of Matthew’s Gospel. Most Modern translations exclude it and comment on it in a footnote. Catholic Bible do not include it, and that is also why it is a separate prayer in the liturgy of the Mass.
Yes it is. Catholics have just always called it The Our Father. Keep in mind that its Latin name is “Pater Noster”
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Kitty_Chan
Guest
can anyone post both?
or what exactly is everyone speaking about?
or what exactly is everyone speaking about?
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mtr01
Guest
King James Version:can anyone post both?
Matthew 6: 9-13 said:
(I’m not sure if it was mentioned but the bolded part is not included in Luke’s account of the Our Father in the King James).
Douay Rheims Version
Matthew 6: 9-13 said:
I quoted the Douay, because it is the Catholic equivalent to the King James (or actually vice-versa). Notice the bolded part does not appear in the text. As others have mentioned, it was probably a copyist error or marginal gloss that got included in the text. As Catholics, we recognize the bolded text as the doxology. After the Our Father, the priest says
“Deliver us, Lord, from every evil, and grant us peace in our day. In your mercy keep us free from sin and protect us from all anxiety as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Savior, Jesus Christ”
then we say:
“For the kingdom, the power, and the glory are yours, now and forever. Amen”
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Kitty_Chan
Guest
Thanks mtr!
you know, now I see it, I actually have heard it both ways. Cant quite remember where, but I suspect in a service it has the doxology and in private not, but I wouldnt assume thats a total rule.
So theres another doxology,
Praise God from whom all blessings flow
praise Him all creatures here below
Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost
(Im thinking Im missing something there, but we used to sing that near the end of the service. Then He would bless us and we would leave)
So are there many doxologies, or maybe that one I quoted wasnt??
oh oh and the Douay, that is a catholic bible or something?? dont know just wondering.
you know, now I see it, I actually have heard it both ways. Cant quite remember where, but I suspect in a service it has the doxology and in private not, but I wouldnt assume thats a total rule.
So theres another doxology,
Praise God from whom all blessings flow
praise Him all creatures here below
Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost
(Im thinking Im missing something there, but we used to sing that near the end of the service. Then He would bless us and we would leave)
So are there many doxologies, or maybe that one I quoted wasnt??
oh oh and the Douay, that is a catholic bible or something?? dont know just wondering.
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Yes, there are many different doxologies, because they are merely endings to prayers and other writings. (If you look at most of the New Testament epistles, you’ll soon discover that almost all of them close with a doxology of some kind. Generally a prayer for blessings on the recipient or a prayer of praise to God.Thanks mtr!
you know, now I see it, I actually have heard it both ways. Cant quite remember where, but I suspect in a service it has the doxology and in private not, but I wouldnt assume thats a total rule.
So theres another doxology,
Praise God from whom all blessings flow
praise Him all creatures here below
Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost
(Im thinking Im missing something there, but we used to sing that near the end of the service. Then He would bless us and we would leave)
So are there many doxologies, or maybe that one I quoted wasnt??
oh oh and the Douay, that is a catholic bible or something?? dont know just wondering.
And yes, you correctly recall the doxology that we often sing at the end of Mass. It’s one of my favorites.
The Douay-Rheims Bible came out about 2 years before the KJV and uses that same period English, but I frankly like it better. It IS a Catholic translation. It has been revised a few times and has only gotten better IMO. The CCD Bible that was in use at the time of Vatican II is a revision of the DRB and is also pretty decent, though copies are difficult to find. (I acquired 2 and gave one to a friend) The actual text of the 1899 DRB can be found here. It has some eccentricities that take some getting used to though. The names of many of the books are still Latinized and 1st & 2nd Samuel is called 1st & 2nd Kings while (what we know as 1st/2nd Kings is called 3rd/4th Kings. Confusing, I know.) Also, the Psalms can through you for a loop because in a couple of places they are divided up differently and that throws the numbering system off. Still, it reads really well in most places, and one has little concern for stumbling across unorthodox notes.:bible1:
I wouldn’t use a King James Bible anymore, but I flat out love the DRV.
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Kitty_Chan
Guest
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Paisius
Guest
I believe the rest of the post on this tread are correct, the doxology at the end of Our Father that some Protestants mistakenly believe is part of the body of the prayer is very similar to one of the doxologies said at the end of most Orthodox prayers.
“…and deliver us from the evil one. For thine is the majesty and thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.”
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Mickey
Guest
Our Father, Who art in the heavens, hallowed be Thy Name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily (superessential) bread, and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptaion but deliver us from the evil one.
For thine is the majesty and thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.
For thine is the majesty and thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.
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daeve
Guest
If I asked for the Douay-Rheims is it possible to end up with another Catholic one? The Catholic book store closed, I dont know where it went, but the Chrisitan book store brought in more Catholic stuff. I mention that because I want to know what to ask, if there is more than one.
Kitty, if you can’t find one locally, try Catholic Supply. That’s the big store here in St. Louis and they have a website. You can get practically anything you might want from them. Deb
Kitty, if you can’t find one locally, try Catholic Supply. That’s the big store here in St. Louis and they have a website. You can get practically anything you might want from them. Deb
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Texan_in_DC
Guest
Thanks all to the great and informative answers, I was just asked this question the other day at my wedding by one of my baptist friends.
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Kitty_Chan
Guest
Thanks, CM also gave me some info, I will try to go to the store this week. If not I will try those websites.
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Church_Militant
Guest
The Douay-Rheims reads a little differently.
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our supersubstantial bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.
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daeve
Guest
Supersubstantial, huh? There’s a word for ya. I think I’ll have to look that one up.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Yeah, that struck me too when I first saw it but during RCIA when I mentioned it to the priest teaching us about the Eucharist he grinned and went on to point out that that was because the Greek in that verse is nearly untranslatable because it means something so incredibly vital that we cannot live without it and that that was the way the translators chose to render what Jerome says in the Latin Vulgate.
Pater noster qui in caelis es sanctificetur nomen tuum 10 veniat regnum tuum fiat voluntas tua sicut in caelo et in terra
11 panem nostrum supersubstantialem da nobis hodie 12 et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimisimus debitoribus nostris 13 et ne inducas nos in temptationem sed libera nos a malo.
Notice also that Jerome does not include the doxology from the Didache that we were talking about earlier and he had extant copies to work with far better than anyone had in 1611.
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