Our Father vs. The Lord's Prayer

[Mumbles140]

So several weeks ago, my fiancee (Protestant) and I were out with one of her bridesmaids (Protestant daughter of a Minister) and her boyfriend, and she asked me why I preferred the TLM. Describing some of the liberal abuses to the GIRM that was taken at the Church where the 4 of us attended college, I tried using a comparison that they would understand. I said “What if, during one of your services, someone used the wrong words for the Our Father? Wouldn’t that upset you?” After some debate about whether it was called the Our Father or the Lord’s Prayer, the bridesmaid said this: What do you mean, like how you Catholics changed the words of it?"

Fortunately, since we were out and my fiancee knows how quick I am to defend the faith, she defused the situation and we let it be. However, this has stuck with me since that time. The debate was over Catholics ending with “and deliver us from evil. Amen” whereas Protestants end “for the Kingdom…” I have looked at Matthew 6: 9-13 (using the NAB on the USCCB web page), and it appears to end with “but deliver us from the evil one.”

I have wanted to message her about this, but haven’t yet because I wanted to make sure this wasn’t just a translational item. I tried explaining that the part they finish with comes from the Mass, but she refused to accept that and claimed Catholics ‘changed it.’ Upon asking if she meant changed it from the Bible, I began on the topic of the formation of the Canon by the Church, at which point my fiancee wisely ended the conversation so no one would get upset after having a drink or two while waiting for dinner.

I guess my question is this: Is it a commonly held Protestant belief that Catholics ‘changed’ the Our Father/Lord’s Prayer? And if so, what basis is used for adding “for the kingdom…”? In Protestant bibles, is this included?

For Catholics, if you know of any translation that vary from the NAB, I would be curious to read what they were.

Thank you all for your help!

 

[Z_Ninja]

I found this interesting read.

ourladyofsorrows.us/QotF/Doxology.htm
“It is believed that a copyist when copying Matthew’s Gospel put a note in the margin, noting that in the Mass, we follow the “Our Father” with the doxology. A later copyist mistakenly transcribed the margin note into the text itself and it was preserved in all subsequent copies of the manuscript. The King James Version translators in 1611 A.D., (The King James Version is a Protestant Bible) used a copy of the New Testament that contained these added words. Most Protestant scholars admit that these words are not those of our Lord. But since this text was included by the translators, it is used by Protestants but is, ironically, a Catholic Liturgical prayer.”

 

[JonNC]

I have wanted to message her about this, but haven’t yet because I wanted to make sure this wasn’t just a translational item. I tried explaining that the part they finish with comes from the Mass, but she refused to accept that and claimed Catholics ‘changed it.’ Upon asking if she meant changed it from the Bible, I began on the topic of the formation of the Canon by the Church, at which point my fiancee wisely ended the conversation so no one would get upset after having a drink or two while waiting for dinner.

I guess my question is this: Is it a commonly held Protestant belief that Catholics ‘changed’ the Our Father/Lord’s Prayer? And if so, what basis is used for adding “for the kingdom…”? In Protestant bibles, is this included?

For Catholics, if you know of any translation that vary from the NAB, I would be curious to read what they were.

I truncated your post to get under the 6000 word limit. Sorry.

I think, in general, Lutherans and Catholics view the Lord’s Prayer / Our Father in the same way - 7 petitions. Here from Luther’s Small Catechism

III. The Lord’s Prayer

As the head of the family should teach it in a simple way to his household.

Our Father who art in heaven.

What does this mean?–Answer.

God would thereby [with this little introduction] tenderly urge us to believe that He is our true Father, and that we are His true children, so that we may ask Him confidently with all assurance, as dear children ask their dear father.

The First Petition.

Hallowed be Thy name.

What does this mean?–Answer.

God’s name is indeed holy in itself; but we pray in this petition that it may become holy among us also.

How is this done?–Answer.

When the Word of God is taught in its truth and purity, and we as the children of God also lead holy lives in accordance with it. To this end help us, dear Father in heaven. But he that teaches and lives otherwise than God’s Word teaches profanes the name of God among us. From this preserve us, Heavenly Father.

The Second Petition.

Thy kingdom come.

What does this mean?–Answer.

The kingdom of God comes indeed without our prayer, of itself; but we pray in this petition that it may come unto us also.

How is this done?–Answer.

When our heavenly Father gives us His Holy Spirit, so that by His grace we believe His holy Word and lead a godly life here in time and yonder in eternity.

The Third Petition.

Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

What does this mean?–Answer.

The good and gracious will of God is done indeed without our prayer; but we pray in this petition that it may be done among us also.

How is this done?–Answer.

When God breaks and hinders every evil counsel and will which would not let us hallow the name of God nor let His kingdom come, such as the will of the devil, the world, and our flesh; but strengthens and keeps us steadfast in His Word and in faith unto our end. This is His gracious and good will.

The Fourth Petition.

Give us this day our daily bread.

What does this mean?–Answer.

God gives daily bread, even without our prayer, to all wicked men; but we pray in this petition that He would lead us to know it, and to receive our daily bread with thanksgiving.

What is meant by daily bread?–Answer.

Everything that belongs to the support and wants of the body, such as meat, drink, clothing, shoes, house, homestead, field, cattle, money, goods, a pious spouse, pious children, pious servants, pious and faithful magistrates, good government, good weather, peace, health, discipline, honor, good friends, faithful neighbors, and the like.

The Fifth Petition.

And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.

What does this mean?–Answer.

We pray in this petition that our Father in heaven would not look upon our sins, nor deny such petitions on account of them; for we are worthy of none of the things for which we pray, neither have we deserved them; but that He would grant them all to us by grace; for we daily sin much, and indeed deserve nothing but punishment. So will we verily, on our part, also heartily forgive and also readily do good to those who sin against us.

The Sixth Petition.

And lead us not into temptation.

What does this mean?–Answer.

God, indeed, tempts no one; but we pray in this petition that God would guard and keep us, so that the devil, the world, and our flesh may not deceive us, nor seduce us into misbelief, despair, and other great shame and vice; and though we be assailed by them, that still we may finally overcome and gain the victory.

The Seventh Petition.

But deliver us from evil.

What does this mean?–Answer.

We pray in this petition, as in a summary, that our Father in heaven would deliver us from all manner of evil, of body and soul, property and honor, and at last, when our last hour shall come, grant us a blessed end, and graciously take us from this vale of tears to Himself into heaven.

Amen.

What does this mean?–Answer.

That I should be certain that these petitions are acceptable to our Father in heaven and heard; for He Himself has commanded us so to pray, and has promised that He will hear us. Amen, Amen; that is, Yea, yea, it shall be so.

Translations vary on the inclusion of “for thine is the kingdom…” at the end of verse 13.
The KJV, for example, has it. The ESV, which the LCMS uses, does not, which mirrors the Douay-Rheims. Some have “…the evil one” some say just “…from evil”. Some have “Amen”, and some don’t.

bible.cc/matthew/6-13.htm

Frankly, I just don’t see a controversy with it.
Jon

 

[Mumbles140]

I found this interesting read.

ourladyofsorrows.us/QotF/Doxology.htm
“It is believed that a copyist when copying Matthew’s Gospel put a note in the margin, noting that in the Mass, we follow the “Our Father” with the doxology. A later copyist mistakenly transcribed the margin note into the text itself and it was preserved in all subsequent copies of the manuscript. The King James Version translators in 1611 A.D., (The King James Version is a Protestant Bible) used a copy of the New Testament that contained these added words. Most Protestant scholars admit that these words are not those of our Lord. But since this text was included by the translators, it is used by Protestants but is, ironically, a Catholic Liturgical prayer.”

Thank you very much for that excellent link - it provided some wonderful information!

 

[Mumbles140]

I think, in general, Lutherans and Catholics view the Lord’s Prayer / Our Father in the same way - 7 petitions. Here from Luther’s Small Catechism

Translations vary on the inclusion of “for thine is the kingdom…” at the end of verse 13.
The KJV, for example, has it. The ESV, which the LCMS uses, does not, which mirrors the Douay-Rheims. Some have “…the evil one” some say just “…from evil”. Some have “Amen”, and some don’t.

bible.cc/matthew/6-13.htm

Frankly, I just don’t see a controversy with it.
Jon

Thank you very much, Jon, for this explanation. It is good to know that some versions of the Protestant bible have it while others do not. I don’t think there was much controversy there, either - the important thing is that we offer our prayers up to God!

 

[Bran_Stark]

The Anglican Book of Common Prayer includes both the short and long versions of the prayer in various portions of the liturgy, so I guess we accept that the “purest” form does not include it, but we often do for the sake of tradition.

After some debate about whether it was called the Our Father or the Lord’s Prayer…

But forget about the doxology, this is what interests me. For some reason I find the term “Our Father” to be silly and annoying. I don’t mind using the Latin and saying pater noster, but if it’s in English it has to be “Lord’s Prayer”.

 

[Hail_Linus]

The Anglican Book of Common Prayer includes both the short and long versions of the prayer in various portions of the liturgy, so I guess we accept that the “purest” form does not include it, but we often do for the sake of tradition.

But forget about the doxology, this is what interests me. For some reason I find the term “Our Father” to be silly and annoying. I don’t mind using the Latin and saying pater noster, but if it’s in English it has to be “Lord’s Prayer”.

Of course this is just my opinion but I prefer calling it the “Our Father”. My reason is that it emphasizes that we share the same father.

 

[Hail_Linus]

So several weeks ago, my fiancee (Protestant) and I were out with one of her bridesmaids (Protestant daughter of a Minister) and her boyfriend, and she asked me why I preferred the TLM. Describing some of the liberal abuses to the GIRM that was taken at the Church where the 4 of us attended college, I tried using a comparison that they would understand. I said “What if, during one of your services, someone used the wrong words for the Our Father? Wouldn’t that upset you?” After some debate about whether it was called the Our Father or the Lord’s Prayer, the bridesmaid said this: What do you mean, like how you Catholics changed the words of it?"

Fortunately, since we were out and my fiancee knows how quick I am to defend the faith, she defused the situation and we let it be. However, this has stuck with me since that time. The debate was over Catholics ending with “and deliver us from evil. Amen” whereas Protestants end “for the Kingdom…” I have looked at Matthew 6: 9-13 (using the NAB on the USCCB web page), and it appears to end with “but deliver us from the evil one.”

I have wanted to message her about this, but haven’t yet because I wanted to make sure this wasn’t just a translational item. I tried explaining that the part they finish with comes from the Mass, but she refused to accept that and claimed Catholics ‘changed it.’ Upon asking if she meant changed it from the Bible, I began on the topic of the formation of the Canon by the Church, at which point my fiancee wisely ended the conversation so no one would get upset after having a drink or two while waiting for dinner.

I guess my question is this: Is it a commonly held Protestant belief that Catholics ‘changed’ the Our Father/Lord’s Prayer? And if so, what basis is used for adding “for the kingdom…”? In Protestant bibles, is this included?

For Catholics, if you know of any translation that vary from the NAB, I would be curious to read what they were.

Thank you all for your help!

I love it when one of those “Bible Only” Protestants brings up this issue. It gives me the delightful opportunity to inform them that they are reciting words that are not biblical but are actually part of the very Catholic Tradition they reject.

 

[GeorgeTheWild]

My NIV Bible ends the Lord’s Prayer with “and deliver us from the evil one.”

It does have a footnote that states:
Or from evil; some late manuscripts one, / for yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever, Amen.

From a quick survey of translations (NIV, NLT, ASV, NASB), it appears that the footnote is the common way to deal with the ‘controversy’

 

[Hail_Linus]

My NIV Bible ends the Lord’s Prayer with “and deliver us from the evil one.”

It does have a footnote that states:
Or from evil; some late manuscripts one, / for yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever, Amen.

From a quick survey of translations (NIV, NLT, ASV, NASB), it appears that the footnote is the common way to deal with the ‘controversy’

This problem usually only arises with the KJV only folks who insist it is accurate.

 

[Jim27290]

We sometimes use it because it is found in the earliest Byzantine texts of the prayer, it is not included in most translations today.

Does no one call it the Pater Noster?

 

[Miriam1947]

And give us this day our daily bread

The Eucharist.

 

[Oldtimer_7]

I very distinctly remember the priest at a Mass in Florida saying the doxology after the prayer. The reason I remember it so clearly was that my wife’s Catholic cousin nudged me in the ribs to let me know to stop speaking the prayer. He was a high degree black belt, so his nudges carried some authority. If anyone has located a couple of ribs lying outside a Catholic church in Florida, please pm me.

The point is, it was said. As for the name of the prayer, Our Father is one translation of the first two Latin words (Pater Noster). If you want to get really picky, the Aramaic formal term for father would be Abbouni, while the familiar was Abba, soft of like Father and Daddy. If the doxology causes so much fuss, imagine someone beginning the prayer with “Daddy…”

 

[hn160]

I truncated your post to get under the 6000 word limit. Sorry.

I think, in general, Lutherans and Catholics view the Lord’s Prayer / Our Father in the same way - 7 petitions. Here from Luther’s Small Catechism

Translations vary on the inclusion of “for thine is the kingdom…” at the end of verse 13.
The KJV, for example, has it. The ESV, which the LCMS uses, does not, which mirrors the Douay-Rheims. Some have “…the evil one” some say just “…from evil”. Some have “Amen”, and some don’t.

bible.cc/matthew/6-13.htm

Frankly, I just don’t see a controversy with it.
Jon

We use Divine Service 3, once a month ( which is my favorite ) and in that service " for thine is the kingdom" is sung harking back to Luther’s Small Catechism. I do not like Divine Service 1,2, and 4.

 

[ProVobis]

FWIW, the wording of the Our Father that Anglophones use today was mandated by Henry VIII:

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/DOXOLOG.HTM

However, the Our Father isn’t even close to the meanings in the original Aramaic:

thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

 

[JonNC]

We use Divine Service 3, once a month ( which is my favorite ) and in that service " for thine is the kingdom" is sung harking back to Luther’s Small Catechism. I do not like Divine Service 1,2, and 4.

Wish we used that setting more. It is beautiful.

Jon

 

[Eutychus123]

FWIW, the wording of the Our Father that Anglophones use today was mandated by Henry VIII:

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/DOXOLOG.HTM

However, the Our Father isn’t even close to the meanings in the original Aramaic:

thenazareneway.com/lords_prayer.htm

Do we know for sure that the original version was Aramaic and not Greek?

 

[defenderoftruth]

Thank you all for the info I was not aware that the KJV added that in when it was not originally in the text. (yet another thing I dislike about the kjv) Daniel 9:26 is interesting too when comparing the DR to the KJV…

 

[Jim_Dandy]

Catholics say the Lord’s Prayer just as the Lord Himself taught it to His Apostles. The words “For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever” were a marginal gloss. That means that these words were written in the margin of the manuscript used to translate the KJV, and a translator mistakenly added them to the ending of the Lord’s Prayer at Matthew 6:13. They were printed in the original KJV and were copied over and over in later editions. Protestants have been saying this prayer – putting words in the Lord’s mouth that he didn’t say – since 1611 when the first KJV was published. The Lord’s Prayer is also in Luke 11:2-4 in a different form. These words were not added in Luke as they were in Matthew.

The words are from 1 Chronicles 29:11 and were used as a doxology (short prayer of praise) in the Greek Mass of the early Church. They are found in the Didache, which means “Teaching.” The full name of the book is the “Teaching of the Twelve Apostles.” The “Didache” was used by the Church for the instruction of adult pagan converts in the first century.

Here’s an excerpt from the Didache: "Remember, O Lord, Thy Church, deliver her from all evil, perfect her in Thy love, and from the four winds assemble her, the sanctified, in Thy kingdom which Thou hast prepared for her, For Thine is the power and the glory for evermore."This doxology was repeated several times at different intervals in the Greek Mass. (excerpt is from Ancient Christian Writers, The Didache, Volume 6, page 21)

I heard it often as I was growing up Southern Baptist: “Catholics removed the ending of the Lord’s Prayer. There is no limit to their arrogant, evil ways.” Of course, we also accused Catholics of “adding extra books to the Bible” when, in actuality, Protestants removed them. :whacky:

Jim Dandy

 

[pritchard85]

So several weeks ago, my fiancee (Protestant) and I were out with one of her bridesmaids (Protestant daughter of a Minister) and her boyfriend, and she asked me why I preferred the TLM. Describing some of the liberal abuses to the GIRM that was taken at the Church where the 4 of us attended college, I tried using a comparison that they would understand. I said “What if, during one of your services, someone used the wrong words for the Our Father? Wouldn’t that upset you?” After some debate about whether it was called the Our Father or the Lord’s Prayer, the bridesmaid said this: What do you mean, like how you Catholics changed the words of it?"

Fortunately, since we were out and my fiancee knows how quick I am to defend the faith, she defused the situation and we let it be. However, this has stuck with me since that time. The debate was over Catholics ending with “and deliver us from evil. Amen” whereas Protestants end “for the Kingdom…” I have looked at Matthew 6: 9-13 (using the NAB on the USCCB web page), and it appears to end with “but deliver us from the evil one.”

I have wanted to message her about this, but haven’t yet because I wanted to make sure this wasn’t just a translational item. I tried explaining that the part they finish with comes from the Mass, but she refused to accept that and claimed Catholics ‘changed it.’ Upon asking if she meant changed it from the Bible, I began on the topic of the formation of the Canon by the Church, at which point my fiancee wisely ended the conversation so no one would get upset after having a drink or two while waiting for dinner.

I guess my question is this: Is it a commonly held Protestant belief that Catholics ‘changed’ the Our Father/Lord’s Prayer? And if so, what basis is used for adding “for the kingdom…”? In Protestant bibles, is this included?

For Catholics, if you know of any translation that vary from the NAB, I would be curious to read what they were.

Thank you all for your help!

For thine is the Kingdom etc. comes from the OT. Very Biblical.