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LausDeo
Guest
What is the proper posture when Our Father is prayed during Mass? Most of my parish holds hands but my family just clasps our hands near our midsection during the prayer. Is this okay?
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thistle
Guest
What you do is fine but so is holding hands with each other or holding hands out upturned. Traditionalists of course will argue the latter two at best are an innovation or at worst an abuse. The plain fact is they have been used for decades and ARE allowed otherwise they would have been forbidden long ago.
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netmilsmom
Guest
Check with your Diocese!
In some places, such as St. Louis, holding hands is forbidden.
You can get opinions here, but the truth stands with your Bishop.
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BayCityRickL
Guest
You’ve got to be kidding. Anyone familiar with these forums wouldn’t even ask that question. Check out some protestant shows on TV and you will see that first and foremost, the commonplace thing to do is to bow one’s head for prayer.
But, don’t expect a consensus on the position of hands. If it were up to me, they’d be clutching a Bible.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
Holding hands is not mentioned in the GIRM. The only thing I am aware of by the Church is that the Celebrant or Deacon cannot instruct the faithful to hold hands at the Our Father.
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netmilsmom
Guest
Br. Rich SFO:
Is holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer allowed or encouraged?
BCL Newsletter, October-November 1989
No. The community’s corporate act of receiving communion is the primary symbol of unity with Christ and the Church. The Sign of Peace immediately preceding the reception of Communion is a liturgical rite that should not be minimized or duplicated in any way. A separate but related issue is the situation of individuals who for personal reasons feel uncomfortable with the practice of holding hands. In this case those individuals feel increasingly excluded from the worshipping community. Sensitivity is needed to include all and draw all to the true symbol of unity.
And can instruct them not too…From the ArchDiocese of St. Louis website.
Is holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer allowed or encouraged?
BCL Newsletter, October-November 1989
No. The community’s corporate act of receiving communion is the primary symbol of unity with Christ and the Church. The Sign of Peace immediately preceding the reception of Communion is a liturgical rite that should not be minimized or duplicated in any way. A separate but related issue is the situation of individuals who for personal reasons feel uncomfortable with the practice of holding hands. In this case those individuals feel increasingly excluded from the worshipping community. Sensitivity is needed to include all and draw all to the true symbol of unity.
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slewi
Guest
Laus,
Holding hands is not encouraged. The other postur you refer to is called orans. The GIRM doesn’t mention the orans posture for laity, only the ordained. If you look here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=86966
you will see the most recent thread on this protestant innovation to our mass.
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Holding hands is not encouraged. The other postur you refer to is called orans. The GIRM doesn’t mention the orans posture for laity, only the ordained. If you look here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=86966
you will see the most recent thread on this protestant innovation to our mass.
S
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dumspirospero
Guest
Are you kidding me??? Are you blatantly lying to the OP or are you telling them this out of complete ignorance of the facts? How long do you consider “decades” when you say that hand holding and orans have “been used for decades and ARE allowed otherwise they would have been forbidden long ago”.
Please tell me which Church you could walk in to in the mid-1950’s and find either one of those unapproved gestures taking place during the Pater Noster in the Pre-Conciliar Latin Mass.
Neither of the two gestures are approved by the GIRM and encouraging inquiring Catholics to use them is a travesty in my opinion. Just because these practices take place today does not mean they are proper…or that the Church has not tried to stop them. We just have a bunch of bone-headed Catholics and indifferent Bishops that are a bunch of renegades doing whatever they feel is right.
thistle:
Please tell me which Church you could walk in to in the mid-1950’s and find either one of those unapproved gestures taking place during the Pater Noster in the Pre-Conciliar Latin Mass.
Neither of the two gestures are approved by the GIRM and encouraging inquiring Catholics to use them is a travesty in my opinion. Just because these practices take place today does not mean they are proper…or that the Church has not tried to stop them. We just have a bunch of bone-headed Catholics and indifferent Bishops that are a bunch of renegades doing whatever they feel is right.
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thistle
Guest
Who said the 1950’s?
20 to 30 years are decades( two and a half)!!
I also don’t agree with your statement about the gestures not being approved. Bishops all over the world have approved them and that is within their authority to do so. Therefore you cannot say they are not approved or proper. That is purely your opinion but not a fact.
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ncjohn
Guest
With all due respect for your passion on the topic, there are two major problems with this argument.
First, if the Church wanted to stop it they would stop it. Implying that they have unsuccessfully tried is ridiculous since the Church has no problem repudiating anything it wants to as Redemptionis Sacramentum shows. Interestingly, even after at least thirty years of people questioning it, a document specifically written to deal with liturgical abuses didn’t address it. Doesn’t sound like much of an attempt to stop it.
The other point is the blatant disrespect for the bishops of the Church. Whether you happen to like them or agree with their views, by virtue of being bishops in communion with Rome and exercising the powers given them by Rome, we are required to be obedient to them. I find it very sad that the very people who scream about obedience to the Church when anyone questions anything are so willing to openly condemn Her chosen bishops and Cardinals. Which is it: are we to be obedient or not?
Referring to a bishop as a “renegade” because they don’t find a problem with people using a communal gesture for a communal prayer seems to me to go a bit beyond just disrespectful. 
It has been rightly stated many times now on many threads here that it is up to the bishop in jurisdiction. Some encourage it; others discourage it; others seem to be neutral. Given the wide difference of opinion even within leaders of the Church, it seems to me to be getting a little “holier than thou” in thinking that only one answer can be right here and that everybody else must be bone-headed renegades who are lacking in devotion and not very good Catholics. Hardly seems like the search for unity and charity that Jesus died on the cross for.
We really need to start acting in charity here and stop questioning each other’s piety and devotion. We are one Body of Christ and need to remember that God loves each of us equally and infintely.
Peace,
P
palmas85
Guest
I don’t think that either is forbidden but then neither is explicitly permitted either. It is fairly common in the United States though.
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dumspirospero
Guest
I’m sorry you feel that way…but you are wrong…I love and respect our Bishops and Cardinals…it is just a handful that I have a problem with, such as Mahoney, Law, etc…and since I do not live in their Arch-Diocese, I am not bound to follow their heterodoxical directives…and this goes way beyond the posture of hands during the “Our Father”…that is just the tip of the iceberg. So don’t try to turn my statement about Bishops being renegades into a comment focused only on the Orans Posture…need I remind of the many problems the Catholic Church has faced here in America to apathetic Bishops. I follow my local Ordinary…I back him 100%…he is an excellent Bishop worthy my my loyalty…he is in full communion with The Holy See and therefore so am I. I am not bound to follow any other Bishop in other states or Diocese…I follow the Pope, The Magisterium, and my local Ordinary.
All you proponents of allowing inappropriate actions/gestures during Mass always use the “holier than thou” statement, which is downright fallacious and idiotic. It is not a matter of one person being holier than the other…it is a matter of right and wrong…plain and simple. The only person question piety and devotion is you and your cohorts…I have never once questioned the piety and devotion of those that use the ORans Posture…heck, they may be more devout than Mother Theresa…but IT STILL DOES NOT MAKE THAT POSTURE CORRECT.
ncjohn:
All you proponents of allowing inappropriate actions/gestures during Mass always use the “holier than thou” statement, which is downright fallacious and idiotic. It is not a matter of one person being holier than the other…it is a matter of right and wrong…plain and simple. The only person question piety and devotion is you and your cohorts…I have never once questioned the piety and devotion of those that use the ORans Posture…heck, they may be more devout than Mother Theresa…but IT STILL DOES NOT MAKE THAT POSTURE CORRECT.
The other point is the blatant disrespect for the bishops of the Church. Whether you happen to like them or agree with their views, by virtue of being bishops in communion with Rome and exercising the powers given them by Rome, we are required to be obedient to them. I find it very sad that the very people who scream about obedience to the Church when anyone questions anything are so willing to openly condemn Her chosen bishops and Cardinals. Which is it: are we to be obedient or not?
It has been rightly stated many times now on many threads here that it is up to the bishop in jurisdiction. Some encourage it; others discourage it; others seem to be neutral. Given the wide difference of opinion even within leaders of the Church, it seems to me to be getting a little “holier than thou” in thinking that only one answer can be right here and that everybody else must be bone-headed renegades who are lacking in devotion and not very good Catholics. Hardly seems like the search for unity and charity that Jesus died on the cross for.
We really need to start acting in charity here and stop questioning each other’s piety and devotion. We are one Body of Christ and need to remember that God loves each of us equally and infintely.
Peace,
J
JGheen
Guest
My understanding it that hand holding is not recommended. However, many parishes (including mine), encourage the practice. These are usually the same parishes that allowed female alter servers before it was permitted …
If your parish does not encourage hand holding, be grateful and pray that your priests remain strong (with your hands to yourself). If your parish does encourage hand holding, pray for your priests even more . . . and, you may hold hands as a show of unity with your Church. Your pastor assumes responsibility for this misguided practice.
If your parish does not encourage hand holding, be grateful and pray that your priests remain strong (with your hands to yourself). If your parish does encourage hand holding, pray for your priests even more . . . and, you may hold hands as a show of unity with your Church. Your pastor assumes responsibility for this misguided practice.
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AltarMan
Guest
The late great Pope John Paul II exhibits an excellent posture to adopt during the praying of the Lord’s Prayer:
http://www.holyangels.org/ftp/Pope John Paul II color web.jpg
While this posture is not defined in the GIRM (it’s rediculous to suggest if it’s not specifically prohibited in the GIRM then it’s OK), it’s a posture that I can’t believe anyone would have a problem with.
http://www.holyangels.org/ftp/Pope John Paul II color web.jpg
While this posture is not defined in the GIRM (it’s rediculous to suggest if it’s not specifically prohibited in the GIRM then it’s OK), it’s a posture that I can’t believe anyone would have a problem with.
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ncjohn
Guest
My statement of being “holier than thou” had absolutely nothing to do with the piety of the gesture. It has to do with one thinking that they have the only right answer when there is a great difference of opinion even within Church leaders and NO definitive statements of any kind. At least as of this time there is no “right or wrong” on this issue; there is only your preference and my preference, both of which are allowed or not allowed, encouraged or discouraged by our individual bishops. To state as fact that it is “wrong” is taking on authority that neither you nor I have, plain and simple.
As to “me and my cohorts…” saying anything, I have no cohorts here nor have I addressed either your or my piety. I have addressed a need for us to be charitable toward each other and not force our preferences on each other or judge each other for those preferences. If there are any that wish to identify themselves as “cohorts” in seeking that peaceful coexistence, that’s wonderful, but I am not claiming anyone else to back me on my personal mission of peace.
Finally, just as an aside, you would have no way of knowing who I might identify as cohorts anyway since my views vary widely within different topics, so I will refrain from putting you “in a box” if you will return me the favor.
Peace be with you,
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Agricola
Guest
I’m a little weary of weighing in on this one, but here it goes…
From my understanding the correct posture of the assembly is similar to JPII’s in the picture someone offered above. It is different from the posture of the priest because our prayers are offered through him as the representative of Christ (I find that a reminder of this helps me to appreciate the nature of the priesthood and the relationship of the assembly to Christ in the mass), whereas the assembly does not have this responsiblility. However, as Fr. McNamara says, the "orantes " posture (holding hands outstretched as in prayer) is not disallowed because it is normally and truly a worthy posture to take when addressing the Lord in prayer.
The problem comes with the holding of hands during the Lord’s Prayer, as this is an added symbol of unity with "merely human meaning ". It not only determines our own disposition during the Lord’s Prayer, but that of the people around us.
I think that we need to keep in mind that the Lord’s Prayer is contained within the context of the liturgy of the Eucharist. The priest is acting at this time in persona christi and as such is more than merely presiding, he acts as Christ during this time. Because of this I refrain from holding hands (I find it detracts from the focus of the prayer, which is adoration - directed toward God, and places focus on human relationships, which is directed toward fellow humans. In my view that is a misplacement of attention due to God at that moment.
It is interesting to note that priests and bishops are specifically directed to assume the “orantes” posture during the Lord’s prayer. This would preclude the holding of hands for them at least.
Also, as someone else has mentioned, it can not be asked of the assembly that they be required to hold hands or assume the “orantes” posture since both requirements would introduce a new rite. The introduction of a new rite in the mass requires a 2/3 vote of a bishops’ conference and the approval of the Holy See (which has not happened).
I was scolded once for not holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer. The man was pleasant enough in the way he went about it, but I felt obliged to explain why I felt he was out of place (I was gentle in my response as well) in reproaching me. I explained that when I am saying the ‘Our Father’, my mind and heart are given completely to the Father and my unity with the rest of the assembly (which is secondary) is sufficiently expressed by reciting the prayer vocally with everyone else.
During the Lord’s Prayer I bow my head, clasp my hands, and close my eyes. I visualize Christ (the Priest) in the “orantes” posture, offering my prayers in union with His Sacrifice to the Father.
In short, yes, the posture of you and your family at the time of the Lord’s Prayer is “okay”. More than that, I would say that it is laudable considering the common practice in your parish. It takes courage to put reverence over the expectations of others. Hope all this helps answer your question.
God bless,
Agricola
From my understanding the correct posture of the assembly is similar to JPII’s in the picture someone offered above. It is different from the posture of the priest because our prayers are offered through him as the representative of Christ (I find that a reminder of this helps me to appreciate the nature of the priesthood and the relationship of the assembly to Christ in the mass), whereas the assembly does not have this responsiblility. However, as Fr. McNamara says, the "orantes " posture (holding hands outstretched as in prayer) is not disallowed because it is normally and truly a worthy posture to take when addressing the Lord in prayer.
The problem comes with the holding of hands during the Lord’s Prayer, as this is an added symbol of unity with "merely human meaning ". It not only determines our own disposition during the Lord’s Prayer, but that of the people around us.
I think that we need to keep in mind that the Lord’s Prayer is contained within the context of the liturgy of the Eucharist. The priest is acting at this time in persona christi and as such is more than merely presiding, he acts as Christ during this time. Because of this I refrain from holding hands (I find it detracts from the focus of the prayer, which is adoration - directed toward God, and places focus on human relationships, which is directed toward fellow humans. In my view that is a misplacement of attention due to God at that moment.
It is interesting to note that priests and bishops are specifically directed to assume the “orantes” posture during the Lord’s prayer. This would preclude the holding of hands for them at least.
Also, as someone else has mentioned, it can not be asked of the assembly that they be required to hold hands or assume the “orantes” posture since both requirements would introduce a new rite. The introduction of a new rite in the mass requires a 2/3 vote of a bishops’ conference and the approval of the Holy See (which has not happened).
I was scolded once for not holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer. The man was pleasant enough in the way he went about it, but I felt obliged to explain why I felt he was out of place (I was gentle in my response as well) in reproaching me. I explained that when I am saying the ‘Our Father’, my mind and heart are given completely to the Father and my unity with the rest of the assembly (which is secondary) is sufficiently expressed by reciting the prayer vocally with everyone else.
During the Lord’s Prayer I bow my head, clasp my hands, and close my eyes. I visualize Christ (the Priest) in the “orantes” posture, offering my prayers in union with His Sacrifice to the Father.
In short, yes, the posture of you and your family at the time of the Lord’s Prayer is “okay”. More than that, I would say that it is laudable considering the common practice in your parish. It takes courage to put reverence over the expectations of others. Hope all this helps answer your question.
God bless,
Agricola
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Fashina86
Guest
IF YOU WANT TO DEBATE THIS… GO TO THE OTHER THREAD! WE DON’T NEED TWO! I know it is fascinating and interesting and all, but keep it to one thread. Thank you
Laura
Laura
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Agricola
Guest
Dear Laura,
The point of this thread was to address the holding of hands during the Lord’s Prayer, correct? Is it not also correct that the point of the other thread was to address the “orantes” posture?
Also, since there are hundreds of threads, and not all of them can be found on the first page, it is hardly reasonable to expect people to go searching for a like thread, determine which was started first, and then answer that thread. This is especially true when a person has a specific question to ask.
I sincerely doubt that having two similar threads will injure anyone, but perhaps the threads will follow different lines of thought.
Please let those who wish to post in this thread do so without comment. It is a separate thread with a similar, but separate, topic.
God bless,
Agricola
The point of this thread was to address the holding of hands during the Lord’s Prayer, correct? Is it not also correct that the point of the other thread was to address the “orantes” posture?
Also, since there are hundreds of threads, and not all of them can be found on the first page, it is hardly reasonable to expect people to go searching for a like thread, determine which was started first, and then answer that thread. This is especially true when a person has a specific question to ask.
I sincerely doubt that having two similar threads will injure anyone, but perhaps the threads will follow different lines of thought.
Please let those who wish to post in this thread do so without comment. It is a separate thread with a similar, but separate, topic.
God bless,
Agricola
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Fashina86
Guest
okay… I am sorry… my fault… I miss understood. In that case… my family held hands for the longest time during the Our Father… however, since fifth grade, Mom decided we should just keep our hands folded and to ourselves.
Laura
(SORRY!)
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Agricola
Guest
Dear Laura,
Don’t worry, I almost made the same mistake and ignored this thread myself. But I looked, and I think its worthwhile. I know many who feel distracted by neighbouring parishoners who (innocently enough I believe) nudge them during the Lord’s Prayer so that they may show unity with them.
God bless,
Agricola
Don’t worry, I almost made the same mistake and ignored this thread myself. But I looked, and I think its worthwhile. I know many who feel distracted by neighbouring parishoners who (innocently enough I believe) nudge them during the Lord’s Prayer so that they may show unity with them.
God bless,
Agricola
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