Our Father's house a marketplace?

[porthos11]

porthos11:

Yes, agreed. Nowhere is it stated in the Gospel accounts that the moneychangers were cheating; only that they were there. Jesus overturned them for conducting their business within the court of the Gentiles, a worship space. There is no need to read “cheating” into it.

The court of the Gentiles was a holy space. CAF is not; there is no comparison.

Perhaps CAF does not intend to be a consecrated forum, devoted to the mission of evangelization. Perhaps such a forum should exist, but not here? The non-believers who come here - seeking, I hope, the Truth worth living for and perhaps dying for - are as deserving of a holy witness, as were the Gentiles of Jesus’s time. Do you agree?

No. This is a discussion forum, and is often a bad witness to Catholicism; a consequence of the open nature of its admission and the varied personalities who join.

If you want something specific geared towards evangelization, you are always free to chip in your money and resources towards that endeavour.

The real evangelization arm of Catholic Answers is the main site, not the forums. The forums is for exchange of ideas, discussion, debate, and argument.

 

[fide]

Sorry, but this is a fantasy.

Jesus did not leave us a life of dwelling with our heads in clouds. He told us to be not just meek as doves but also as cunning as serpents. Catholic Answers, is, surprise, IN the secular world. It exists, is incorporated, and ministers TO the secular world.

I have heard this before. I have been told even from pulpits that Jesus doesn’t really expect anyone to live as He taught! Sort of under the banner of “nobody’s perfect, after all.”

No, the truth is not a fantasy. Compromise with the truth - now that is a fantasy!

 

[TheLittleLady]

It means that it is not a publicly held corporation or, as I said, an arm of a Diocese Order or parish.

They have to pay bills. No one underwrites their bills. They have employees and light bills.

 

[fide]

I hope no ministry has “employees”. I was told once by a priest, “You work for us!” That really hurt. I had thought we all were working for the One God.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

With all due respect, if you object to how CA does its business, then why do you support it by posting here?

 

[TheLittleLady]

The Vatican, every Diocese and most parishes have employees. I am a parish employee.

In the US, priests are paid a salary, they are employees.

Scripture tells us it is a sin that cries to heaven to deprive a workman of his wages.

I’m not sure where in this world you live.

 

[fide]

There may be an easy solution to this problem - the verse does not say “marketplace”.

The verse in all three gospels says “a den of robbers ” - λῃστῶν .

It is the same Greek word as the two thieves ( λῃσταί ) crucified next to Christ.

The issue that Christ had was the thieving.

The fourth Gospel - John’s - cited in the OP - (Jn 2:13-25) has this:

Jn 2:16 “Take these out of here, and stop making my Father’s house a marketplace.”

 

[fide]

The Vatican, every Diocese and most parishes have employees. I am a parish employee.

In the US, priests are paid a salary, they are employees.

Scripture tells us it is a sin that cries to heaven to deprive a workman of his wages.

I’m not sure where in this world you live.

It is true for every Christian, that our LIFE is in the Body of Christ, in Whom we are members. We are passing through this world, to an eternal city. It is crucially important to know in Whom our LIFE is.

The Lord teaches, “You cannot serve God and Mammon.” It is a choice, calling for time, discernment, and commitment. And certitude.

 

[ReaderT]

My mistake. Point withdrawn.

 

[fide]

With all due respect, if you object to how CA does its business, then why do you support it by posting here?

The present system is new - I discovered it this morning. I am listening to discern what my response ought to be, which I hope to be soon. BUT - I must say, my intention has never been to support the business of CAF, but to support the Catholics and potential Catholics who come here to talk. I looked upon CAF (past tense, now), as a ministry staffed by volunteers - not “employees”. I don’t object to any ministry asking for support - for gifts and contributions offered in charity, from the gifts that they (we) have received from God.

I don’t believe that secular ads are appropriate; I don’t believe offering as an alternative to secular ads, a cash payment, is appropriate either. So I am troubled by what I consider mixed messages - God and Mammon mixed together - and probable I will leave; maybe when this thread is finished.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Well, virtually every internet forum I’ve ever been on had to pay at least its hosting bill somehow. Either they did it by displaying ads, or selling us something, or asking everybody to pony up a big donation every year for the hosting fee.

There are a ton of prayer groups and ministry groups on Facebook supporting themselves with ads and sometimes with selling some item to the group members (Fr. Heilman for example runs a shop with stuff like rosaries and prayer books that he writes, Fr. Calloway’s order sells his books and some sacred art work). I don’t see it as being a big deal. It’s like the parish church needs donations and fundraisers to keep the utlities on and the building maintained. Internet forums don’t run themselves; before the forum switched to Discourse, it had a whole bunch of paid moderators, and I doubt that all the CA apologists are working for free.

 

[Pitcairn17]

I hope no ministry has “employees”. I was told once by a priest, “You work for us!” That really hurt. I had thought we all were working for the One God.

I thought Christ said something to the effect that a “worker is worth his hire.” Apparently you disagree with Him. You seem to have a head-in-the-clouds view of “ministry” in which - for example - large charitable endeavors, which raise money to feed and clothe the poor- and which are certainly “ministries” - are expected to accomplish their work in this complex, international world with pure volunteers who are somehow expected to raise and feed their own families with no pay at all, and who therefore can’t be considered “employees.” I suggest to you that people who are grant writers, fund raisers, office management, and similar staff are most certainly worth their “hire” as employees when their common efforts achieve the goals of such large ministerial endeavors.

 

[fide]

My mistake. Point withdrawn.

It is interesting to me, that the different word that John heard, and recorded - is “marketplace” - instead of the phrase heard and recorded in the other three Gospels - “a robber’s den” (or “den of thieves” in some translations). I conclude from this difference that John - led by the Holy Spirit - really wanted to say that the world of business - commerce - marketing, when operating in a holy place, is thievery! Something holy is being stolen away from people struggling in darkness! People are given a message of unholy compromise - and the result is lukewarmness, tepidity, which the Lord would vomit out of His mouth. When such mixtures are presented in the name of religion, it is grave - wrong, deeply wrong.

And thank you for the “heart”.

 

[ReaderT]

I conclude from this difference that John - led by the Holy Spirit - really wanted to say that the world of business - commerce - marketing, when operating in a holy place , is thievery !

I wonder; then what do you think about the (near-ubiquitous) custom of charging money for votive candles in mass or liturgy? I can’t think of a Catholic or Orthodox church that didn’t have candles for sale. Also, what about the practice of “buying” masses?

And thank you for the “heart”.

And thank you for kindly pointing me to the issue I should’ve seen in the first place. I appreciate the dispassionate instruction.

 

[fide]

I wonder; then what do you think about the (near-ubiquitous) custom of charging money for votive candles in mass or liturgy? I can’t think of a Catholic or Orthodox church that didn’t have candles for sale. Also, what about the practice of “buying” masses?

A wise and holy priest I was privileged to know for some years, once said “Love of money makes fools of us all.” He himself had no love of money, nor was he a fool. He was a witness of true treasure; he taught me to listen to Holy Scripture - to “listen until you hear what only God could have said to you.”

 

[ReaderT]

A wise and holy priest I was privileged to know for some years, once said “Love of money makes fools of us all.” He himself had no love of money, nor was he a fool.

Ah, then one is compelled to ask: is selling candles at 50 cents a pop considered “love of money”? I assume your answer would be no because the church isn’t even making a profit - but it’s still “commerce operating in a holy place”, so what then?

 

[MariaChristi]

Dear fide,

Thanks for writing this post! I’ve read only a few of the replies, but I thank you for this post because I too had similar concerns when I read the announcement about turning off the ad blocker. I spent yesterday praying about what the Lord would have me do.

Today is the Memorial of St. Pius X who chose for his Papal Motto: “To restore all things in Christ” and I believe the Church is called to do that during these days especially. On CAF I recently began threads on the 33 Day Preparation for Total Consecration to Jesus through Mary and the first 12 days in that Preparation is spent “seeking to empty oneself of the spirit of the world, which is opposed to Christ”.

When I read the announcement about turning off the ad blocker, I felt as if we were being asked to do something that seemed very much like the “spirit of the world” to me and it still does.

I turned off the ad blocker today but I’m not sure if I can remain on CAF. It is a difficult thing for me to leave but seeing all the advertisements, seems very much like a “market place”, and a distraction from the serious goal St. Pius X set before the Church in his motto “to renew all things in Christ”. I simply do not want to “compromise” with the “spirit of the world”. The Word of God rings true: “Do not love the world and the things of the world.”

 

[brown_bear]

Here, after the Holy Mass, the stalls of things to sell are outside the church, or outdoors or in the parish halls.

Only the so-called “counter of the good press” is internal, because it is thought that when one buys a newspaper or a magazine, he does so in silence.

As a man no longer very young and hypersensitive to noise, I am very grateful, so I can stay a few minutes after Holy Mass almost in peace.

Coming to the point, I think Jesus found a lot of confusion in the areas dedicated to prayer, and moreover that the money changers were thieves, the call had to be full of love but also strong

 

[fide]

Do you have in Italy a saying relatable to one here in the U.S. - “the last straw”? It is amazing that an overloaded camel, made to carry much, can be finally and catastrophically be burdened with too much. A “last straw” - a small, seemingly insignificant last burden of injustice - is laid on the poor dumb animal, and it collapses.

Jesus said the same thing in many different ways. I pray that the secularizing forces within the Church will soon fail - perhaps with one small “last straw” - and His Truth will become clear, obvious, undeniable, uncompromisable. The City of God and the City of Man cannot “be friends”. God and Mammon cannot “make a deal”. The evil one is not appeased by our “accompaniment”; he is preparing for war. The lost, dark, materialistic world needs words and witnesses of light.

 

[Bithynian]

I don’t find the advertising intrusive at all (I’m used to ‘mentally’ filtering it out), except on mobile browsers where the ads block the ‘Reply’ button. Ideally, there would be no advertising, but as @Tis_Bearself and others wrote, Catholic Answers doubtless has a modicum of expenses.

I don’t know why the use of advertising revenue is being characterised as ‘serving Mammon’. Moreover, Catholic Answers is a lay apostolate, and the Holy See’s understanding of such ministries is outlined in Apostolicam Actuositatem. The decree places no expectation on the laity that their evangelising and sanctifying activity must be conducted gratis (that is, without expectation of monetary compensation) nor that it must be shorn from from the world. In fact, the decree states that:

[The laity’s] apostolic formation is specially characterized by the distinctively secular and particular quality of the lay state and by its own form of the spiritual life.

So even the professions of a financier and a market trader can function within the apostolic mission of the laity.