Our Free Will

[Isaiah45_9]

So by a simple calculation : if only God is Good ,everyone else is bad.

Or:

Not completely good
Not completely bad

We have the ability to do good and the ability to do bad. It is a choice we struggle every day. Some more than others. And yet we are called to be perfect (Matthew 5:48).

Can we perfect and not good? On our own? Absolutely not. In Christ? Absolutely yes.

And yet, we wander after what we have come to know. And yet, by Faith we are not the children of perdition, but of faith to the saving of the soul (Hebrews 10:39).

So as we persevere by the measure of grace given to us, we strive towards the goal that is Jesus Christ.

No, we are not the children of disobedience, but of faith.

Death through Eve, Life through Mary.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just, to forgives us our sins (1 John 1:9).

No, we are not the children of disobedience, but of faith. For we are all children of God by Faith, in Christ Jesus (Galatians 2:26)

In Christ Jesus.

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Death through Eve, Life through Mary.

It is my opinion that scripture does not speak according to this fashion.
It is a true statement of course in a contemplative sort of level but not in a more concrete or doctrinal level ;as revealed ,I believe,in the teachings of both OT and the NT.

For one : headship always appears in the male ( irrespective of female involvement).
For this reason (Genisis 3:24) " So he drove out the man" .That is after he( and all mankind with and in him) had fallen.

We see this also in 1Cor:15: “And so it is written,The first man Adam was made a living soul;the last Adam”(Christ)“was made a quickening spirit”

So then death : through "The first man " “is of the earth,earthy: " and life: through " the second man” “is the Lord from heaven”. 1Cor15:47.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

It is my opinion that scripture does not speak according to this fashion.
It is a true statement of course in a contemplative sort of level but not in a more concrete or doctrinal level ;as revealed ,I believe,in the teachings of both OT and the NT.

For one : headship always appears in the male ( irrespective of female involvement).
For this reason (Genisis 3:24) " So he drove out the man" .That is after he( and all mankind with and in him) had fallen.

We see this also in 1Cor:15: “And so it is written,The first man Adam was made a living soul;the last Adam”(Christ)“was made a quickening spirit”

So then death : through "The first man " “is of the earth,earthy: " and life: through " the second man” “is the Lord from heaven”. 1Cor15:47.

In context, it’s not an either/or but a both/and.

Eternal life can only be found through Jesus Christ.

But,

The first born of death came from Adam’s seed through Eve.

The first born of life came from the Holy Spirit’s seed through Mary.

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

In context, it’s not an either/or but a both/and.

Eternal life can only be found through Jesus Christ.

But,

The first born of death came from Adam’s seed through Eve.

The first born of life came from the Holy Spirit’s seed through Mary.

Hi Jose ( hopefully I will find your own name easier to remember .LoL)

I can understand your reasoning( or logic) here,but in the matter of revealed doctrine as taught by those chosen vessels ,who by the Spirit of God,put pen to paper:it is my opinion that we can see no such communication.

So for me in this context : it has to be one or the other.unless you can show a scriptural precedent there is no provision for a “but”.

Death came ,not through the seed of Adam( and that through eve) but ,Romans 5:12 “Wherefore,as by one man sin entered into the world,and death by sin;and so death passed upon all men”
Verse 17 " For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one"(KJV)
The birth of death was through the “first Adam” who sinned.

The birth of life,through “the last Adam " " ,(who )” was made a quickening spirit"(1Cor15:45)

You also make mention of " the Holy Spirit’s seed,through Mary"

“that holy thing " was fashioned through the seed ( singular) of the virgin:consisting of only a human nature ( Heb10:5 " A Body Hast Thou Prepared”).

Because the eternal person of the Son of God would merge and dwell therein :there was no need for additional seed( as if it were simply a human birth)

But:"The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee ,and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God"Luke 1:35.

Genisis 3:15 ,I believe sets the order aright ,and that right from mankind’s fall in Adam.

“And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,and between thy seed and her seed,it shall bruise thy head ,and thou shalt bruise his heel”

Victory over the serpent ,and so life ,comes through the (promised) seed ( of the woman).
It is true the promised seed was yet in our mother Eve,or “the woman” but as Eve ( we both ,I believe,would hold) was not personally seen to be at “enmity” with the serpent( for he had already caused Adams fall through her) then since this verse is prophetic in nature : the woman cannot be literal Eve but is that same spiritual woman of Rev :12.:
" Heavenly Jerusalem ," “the mother of us all”.Gal4:26.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Hi Jose ( hopefully I will find your own name easier to remember .LoL)

I can understand your reasoning( or logic) here,but in the matter of revealed doctrine as taught by those chosen vessels ,who by the Spirit of God,put pen to paper:it is my opinion that we can see no such communication.

But it’s not just my reasoning . It is a fact, Eve was impregnated by Adam ---- Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit.

[bibledrb]Matthew 1:18[/bibledrb]]
[bibledrb]Luke 1:34-35[/bibledrb]

So for me in this context :

The context for this thread (Free Will) is:

• Through Eve’s free choice: death.
• Through Mary’s free choice: life.

God is able to have done it any other way. But that’s not the facts.

it has to be one or the other.unless you can show a scriptural precedent there is no provision for a “but”.

The Scriptural precedent is… well… present.

There is not resurrection without crucifixion as there is no crucifixion without birth as there is no birth without Mary.

Besides, you must first prove from Scriptures that they are the exclusive precedent for provisions.

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

But it’s not just my reasoning . It is a fact, Eve was impregnated by Adam ---- Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit.

For me ( and I believe :seen in scripture too) your comparison is not acceptable here.

We are only informed ( regarding “a body thou hast prepared for me” Heb10:5)) that “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee ,and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee”

This remains a mystery and to try to interpret( no matter how sincerely) is I believe : an intrusion.

For one thing a mere human analogy confuses ( in my opinion ) " that holy thing which shall be born", with the natural order of things.
That is the birth of an ordinary human person.

But as you know this “body prepared " did not include a person: as if the person of the Son of God would jointly share his habitation.
But that " holy thing” was and is ,human nature singularly merged with the person of the Son of God" .This also as you know,is the great mystery of the incarnation :even Emmanuel .

Finally in Matthew1:25 :in scripture the description of that union bringing forth fruit in a human marriage is itself dealt with in a rather delicate and sensitive manner.

“Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him,and took unto him his wife :And Knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son”

But that is a whole new other topic and perhaps a thread for another time!

 

[Isaiah45_9]

For me ( and I believe :seen in scripture too) your comparison is not acceptable here.

We are only informed ( regarding “a body thou hast prepared for me” Heb10:5)) that “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee ,and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee”

This remains a mystery and to try to interpret( no matter how sincerely) is I believe : an intrusion.

For one thing a mere human analogy confuses ( in my opinion ) " that holy thing which shall be born", with the natural order of things.
That is the birth of an ordinary human person.

But as you know this “body prepared " did not include a person: as if the person of the Son of God would jointly share his habitation.
But that " holy thing” was and is ,human nature singularly merged with the person of the Son of God" .This also as you know,is the great mystery of the incarnation :even Emmanuel .

Bernard,

Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit.

[bibledrb]Luke 1:41-44[/bibledrb]

Jesus was fetus in Mary’s womb, and was conceived by the Virgin, and was a toddler, and a teenager, and was crucified, and died, and resurrected.

These are all facts.

I have to ask:

Do you believe Jesus was fully God and fully human?

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Bernard,

I have to ask:

Do you believe Jesus was fully God and fully human?

Yes indeed .
Do you believe he was two persons ? ( no offence to any with such a terrible condition) like unto a Schizophrenic ? Both inhabiting the same body?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Yes indeed .
Do you believe he was two persons ? ( no offence to any with such a terrible condition) like unto a Schizophrenic ? Both inhabiting the same body?

One person, Two natures.

(No offense, I am a bit bi-polar )

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

The context for this thread (Free Will) is:

• Through Eve’s free choice: death.
• Through Mary’s free choice: life.

.

Yes Jose, I also am glad to return to the present context( of this thread)

You bring forth another interesting analogy.:Eve ,under the headship of her husband,truly can be described( in the context of this thread) as having “free will” ,that is before the Fall.

But not surprisingly ,we must differ in relation to our view of Mary ,the mother of Jesus.
In the context of “free will” ,in my understanding of fallen human nature :" there is none that doeth good,no not one “(Rom 3:12).
It is true Paul in the NT here is talking of (all) unregenerate man : that is man seen outside of Christ.
But as you might know ,Paul is quoting from Psalm 53:3 and Psalm 14:3.
" They are all gone aside,they are altogether become filthy: there is none that doeth good ,no,not one”
Since this quote’s endurance stretched from the time of David to the time of Paul,then in between ,all the sons of Adam are encompassed in its significance .
This to me ,would include Joseph and his wife Mary . (That is ,before their conversion)

Even after she gives her consent ,and wonderfully ;humbly submits ,to the will of God,

Jesus : her son ,in the spirit of the Psalms declares :" there is none good but one ,that is God," Mark10:18(KJV)

This is not to say this is how they are viewed ( by God ) " in Christ"
But in view of his coming " atonement" :Jesus in context ,is tween here talking of men (and woman) in need of his perfect offering on their behalf.

It was as true of Mary as it was with Hannah as it was with Ruth or for that matter as it was with Mary Magdalene: "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power"psalm 110:3.

I repeat Ephesians 2:1" And you hath he quickened who were dead in trespasses and sins"

Before they received that " new heart and right spirit within " they are declared by scripture,to be have been dead( spiritually speaking).

John 5:25" The hour is coming and now is" ( he declares to his hearers) " when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son"( so his hearers of necessity would prior to hearing his voice: have been dead) “of God: and they that hear shall live”

Now you may say Jose, " Not completely bad"
and probably you also would say : not completely dead ,but the scripture makes no such allowances .

 

[Isaiah45_9]

trimmed

Now you may say Jose, " Not completely bad"
and probably you also would say : not completely dead ,but the scripture makes no such allowances .

Bernard,

Good can only come from God. But still in most of us, there is the God given ability to do good. In your scenario, there is no gray. It’s either black or white. I think that is not the correct way to look at things.

Scriptures have things that are explicit and implicit. And others that are just plain mystery.

If you go on the tangent of Paul’s quote on Rom. 3:12. There is not one that does good. Does Christ do good? Does the Father that provides for his family do good? Does the Mother that cares for her children do good? Does the brother that helps his brothers do good? Does the rich man that donates his possessions for the poor do good?

• I can really go on and on but will stop here.

The case would be on you to prove that these things (Among many, many others) are not good.

As such, there is people doing good. It is a gift from God, but they are doing good still. Therefore, Scriptures say: “No one does good”.

What is the opposite of doing good? To do bad.

Do you only do bad things for your family? Or do you do good things for them as well?

 

[PJM]

=drac16;11796729]Well, I don’t believe in total free will-- I believe that some are unable to choose to follow God’s will because their hearts are diseased. Like Pharoah, for instance.

With choice comes responsibility, so in the case of making a choice that couldn’t be more important, like submitting oneself to The Almighty, the responsibility is huge. Even so, just having an invitation to taste the fruits of grace, not to mention Paradise, is a tremendous gift.

OK BUT,

WHY was Pharaoh unable to understand?

IT WAS BECAUSE of his many sins against the captive Jews. These were freewill choices by him.

Actions ALWAYS have consequences; but in no way was his “freewill” abused.

There are are HARDENED by their SINS: Divine Justice

 

[Protestor]

[Isa 43; 7 & 21].

What does this mean for us; for you personally?

God Bless you,
Patrick

What do these verses have to do with free will?

It means I do what I want.

 

[Protestor]

These were freewill choices by him.

Actions ALWAYS have consequences; but in no way was his “freewill” abused.

Do you mean free will or is there a different meaning between free will and freewill? I don’t think that freewill is an actual word. Not trying to be semantical but just for future reference

 

[Crux_Sacra]

I’m a little surprised that no one has mentioned the Bible verses which directly reference free will.

Sirach 15:14-20 (Douay-Rheims)
Sir 15:14 God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel.
Sir 15:15 He added his commandments and precepts.
Sir 15:16 If thou wilt keep the commandments and perform acceptable fidelity for ever, they shall preserve thee.
Sir 15:17 He hath set water and fire before thee: stretch forth thy hand to which thou wilt.
Sir 15:18 Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him:
Sir 15:19 For the wisdom of God is great, and he is strong in power, seeing all men without ceasing.
Sir 15:20 The eyes of the Lord are towards them that fear him, and he knoweth al the work of man.

I’d have to say that it has a pretty obvious meaning.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I’m a little surprised that no one has mentioned the Bible verses which directly reference free will.

Sirach 15:14-20 (Douay-Rheims)
Sir 15:14 God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel.
Sir 15:15 He added his commandments and precepts.
Sir 15:16 If thou wilt keep the commandments and perform acceptable fidelity for ever, they shall preserve thee.
Sir 15:17 He hath set water and fire before thee: stretch forth thy hand to which thou wilt.
Sir 15:18 Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him:
Sir 15:19 For the wisdom of God is great, and he is strong in power, seeing all men without ceasing.
Sir 15:20 The eyes of the Lord are towards them that fear him, and he knoweth al the work of man.

I’d have to say that it has a pretty obvious meaning.

Nice!

Love the St Benedict? Medal on your picture.

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

Bernard,

Good can only come from God. But still in most of us, there is the God given ability to do good. In your scenario, there is no gray. It’s either black or white. I think that is not the correct way to look at things.

Scriptures have things that are explicit and implicit. And others that are just plain mystery.

If you go on the tangent of Paul’s quote on Rom. 3:12. There is not one that does good. Does Christ do good? Does the Father that provides for his family do good? Does the Mother that cares for her children do good? Does the brother that helps his brothers do good? Does the rich man that donates his possessions for the poor do good?

• I can really go on and on but will stop here.

Yes ,I believe it is a good idea to stop there, and perhaps go back to Romans chapter 3:1&11,where we see this verse in context :

"There is none righteous ,no, not one :There is none that understandeth ,there is none that seeketh after God "

( Since Christ is God the Son: he of necessity is excluded from the " none righteous,no,not one" for " there is none that seeketh after God")

Again talking of Jews and Gentiles ( so all the world) “we have before proved both the Jews and Gentiles,that they are all under”( the dominion of )“sin” (verse 9)

"They are all gone out of the way ,they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good ,no not one"Rom 3:13(KJV)

For me ,there is no “grey” here . How much more all encompassing can God be in his judgement upon man? And upon this judgement( revealed from Rom 1:18 and up to this point in Rom 3) he will ,I believe, act:
"But we are sure that the judgement of God is according to truth " ( Rom2:2)

Your references to good acts ( as seen man to man) does not prove ,in my opinion,that true good, which alone precedes from God : who “only” is Good.
As you know Jose,Jesus sees the heart ,and what we see is primarily ( outside of Christ) circumstantial in its nature.
Even though it (seen through our eyes) seems to be impressive.
Hence 1Cor13:3. :

“And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor,and give my body to be burned,and have not charity,it profiteth me nothing”

Here you would agree,we can do exceedingly great sacrifices ,but how does God judge the heart of the doer ?

 

[drac16]

OK BUT,

WHY was Pharaoh unable to understand?

IT WAS BECAUSE of his many sins against the captive Jews. These were freewill choices by him.

Actions ALWAYS have consequences; but in no way was his “freewill” abused.

There are are HARDENED by their SINS: Divine Justice

I don’t know where you’re coming from anymore because this understanding of Pharoah is neither Biblical, nor Qur’anic. At the core of this, in my opinion, is a man-centred theology. A theology that says that man always has the necessary amount of grace to believe and that God does not seal someone’s heart. Nowhere does this leave room for the Holiness of Allah azza wa jal to harden whom He wills, so as to punish the sinner who rightfully deserves it. It’s always man who is able to do this or that; and that Allah is more-or-less a slave to man’s ability [or inability] to co-operate.

So I’ve said my piece. There’s nowhere else to go. “For you is your religion, and for me is my religion” [Qur’an, surah 109:6]

 

[Bernard_Lyons]

I don’t know where you’re coming from anymore because this understanding of Pharoah is neither Biblical, nor Qur’anic. At the core of this, in my opinion, is a man-centred theology. A theology that says that man always has the necessary amount of grace to believe and that God does not seal someone’s heart. Nowhere does this leave room for the Holiness of Allah azza wa jal to harden whom He wills, so as to punish the sinner who rightfully deserves it. It’s always man who is able to do this or that; and that Allah is more-or-less a slave to man’s ability [or inability] to co-operate.

So I’ve said my piece. There’s nowhere else to go. “For you is your religion, and for me is my religion” [Qur’an, surah 109:6]

Once again ,in my opinion ,one outside of the "Christian " profession ,has put to shame,that profession of Christianity that they proclaim.

Again dract16, we must needs ,differ on certain aspects:

I don’t believe God ( as revealed ,and preserved in his holy word) would individually" seal someone’s heart" as you put it.
But mankind ( by his fall)sealed his own death,or if you like hardness of heart.

"Wherefore God also gave them up "(Romans 2:24) That is corporately ,
He gave them up ( or if you like: sealed that choice ;or that "free will rejection of him ,that mankind made ,whilst in the perfection of the garden of Eden.)

Although Paul ,relating ,to us,the fact that " God gave them up" ,is manifest after the fall ,as seen here,this to me ,simply evidences proof positive :that darkness or deadness within the heart of every man ( and woman)was the result of man’ fall “in the beginning”.

Because even now ,all creation cries out his name ;and deep within the conscience of every man :testimony that God is departed,is written there.

"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them,for God hath showed it unto them.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,being understood by the things that are made,even his eternal power and Godhead;so that they are without excuse:

Because that,when they knew God,they glorified him not as God,neither were thankful:but became vain in their imaginations ,and their foolish heart was darkened"

Romans2:19-21.

Now that God opens the heart individually ,that is another matter.As is witnessed by the conversion of Paul and Lydia whose heart( book of the Acts). " the Lord opened"

But your observation that mans free will makes God powerless and reliant on Man ,for me ,is inescapably true.
For example,that Christ Jesus was offered up a sinless sacrifice for sin and in so doing suffered in the body(,outside of mans ability to describe) ,but if man chose to reject this ,salvation then the possibility that no one was there for no one to " accept" it.

So this ,to me clearly places God at the mercy of Man.Upside down ( or from earth to heaven)
But the Gospel of Jesus Christ : entirely places sinful man ,at the mercy of God( from heaven to earth)

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Yes ,I believe it is a good idea to stop there, and perhaps go back to Romans chapter 3:1&11,where we see this verse in context :

"There is none righteous ,no, not one :There is none that understandeth ,there is none that seeketh after God "

Here you would agree,we can do exceedingly great sacrifices ,but how does God judge the heart of the doer ?

Bernard, even atheists can quote from the Bible. I’m trying to have a reasonable conversation with you and all you do quote from Scriptures.

Instead of answering my questions you go off and sling more verses…

As for none being righteous:

*Luke 1:5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah; and he had a wife of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
**Luke 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon, and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
**Matthew 13:17 Truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

*Here we see many who were righteous (And I’m not including Noah).

I am not interested in Bible verse slinging but I am up for a good conversation.