Our lady of fatima, nostradamus, and the saints' bones

[whitecrayon]

in this thread i would like to open up discussion concerning what i have found to be the three most intriguing enigmas of catholicism: the alleged mass sighting of a marian apparition at fatima, the uncanny symbolism in some of the quatrains of nostradamus, and the inexplicably slow deterioration of certain bones of a few catholic saints.

if any readers care to offer here any evidence for or against the idea that any or all of these three enigmas represent supernatural miracles, or any thoughts on the matter, i would greatly appreciate it. perhaps links to rational websites or recommendations of relevant literature. thank you.

 

[whitecrayon]

if anyone can provide the forum with references to any good catholic books, websites, and/or other media which treat any of these three mysteries, please do so here. i, for one, am quite interested in delving into the evidence and doing my best critical thinking regarding all three.

whitecrayon

 

[Julia_Mae]

in this thread i would like to open up discussion concerning what i have found to be the three most intriguing enigmas of catholicism: the alleged mass sighting of a marian apparition at fatima, the uncanny symbolism in some of the quatrains of nostradamus, and the inexplicably slow deterioration of certain bones of a few catholic saints.

if any readers care to offer here any evidence for or against the idea that any or all of these three enigmas represent supernatural miracles, or any thoughts on the matter, i would greatly appreciate it. perhaps links to rational websites or recommendations of relevant literature. thank you.

Okay, first, there was no “mass sighting” of Mary, there was the Miracle of the Sun. You can read about Marian apparitions through history here: miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/index.html including Fatima and what happened there.

Always use the “more information” link under the picture.

I don’t know a thing about Nostradamus or care.

It’s not just bones, but entire bodies that are preserved from decay. Here’s a list I found: catholicapologetics.info/library/gallery/incorrupt/incorrupt.htm

Miracles are the order of the day in our Church.

 

[Edmundus1581]

I believe that miracles are a powerful argument for the Catholic Church, and I commend you for wanting to look into them with sincerity.

I would recommend that if you want to seriously investigate a particular miracle that you get a book on it, rather than rely on web sites alone. With a web site one can start to form counter-arguments which are not usually answered on the site, but which may be answered in a book, because there’s more space in a book and because a good author is usually more careful and diligent than a web site creator.

On Fatima I strongly recommend Fatima From the Beginning, by Fr John De Marchi (free online edition, various editions). The author lived in Fatima for many years, starting during WWII, and interviewed many witnesses and Sister Lucia. If you read the book you will find yourself convinced, I hope, that the miracle of Fatima could be no trick or illusion. The book has some important witnessed events which are not addressed by the sceptical "explanation"s of the miracle.

Nostradamus - interesting, but not overwhelmingly convincing.

Incorruptibles. I personally find them convincing, but I am yet to see a book or web site which proves, to a skeptic, that there is any saint who has been totally incorrupt (ie. no deterioration at all) and that the ones who partially incorrupt are not naturally possible. I would rather see two or three of the most convincing cases analysed in detail, with all possible explanations addressed, than a hundred short cases. Still, St John Vianney and St Bernadette are awesome!

The other Catholic miracle I find the most convincing is the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano, where a communion host was transformed into real flesh in the 8th century and is still on display in the church. The apparition Zeitun in Egypt is in a Coptic church, but also very convincing, with many apparitions, witnesses and photos.

 

[whitecrayon]

dear julie mae and edmundus

thank you both very much for turning me on to such great sources of information and for enlightening me a little bit as well. i will read your suggestions and try to get back to this thread to post a little about what i have learned and what i then believe.

about nostradamus (or michel de nostradame): a few of his quatrains, such as the famous one containing the reference to a prophecied evil warmonger named “hister” (which many people believe referenced adolph hitler) and the one about the leapord on the battlefield losing to the bear (or something like that; the leapord, if i remember correctly, was napoleon’s emblem on his standards) and a few others i have read about, all are remarkably on target. i simply cannot discount the possibility that nostradamus had visions of future events.

also… here i would like to mention that, as a firm believer in the evidence for extraterrestrial visitation to earth (check out www.ufoevidence.org to see the definitive photographs for yourself and then read two books: “ufos and the national security state” by historian richard dolan and “ce5” by academic richard haines), i have wondered whether extraterrestrial aliens might somehow be mixed up in so-called supernatural phenomena here on our planet. what do others think about that seemingly far-fetched hypothesis: that some of the inexplicable events on earth, such as nostradamus’ uncanny quatrains, may have aliens behind them.

 

[whitecrayon]

from the website science.howstuffworks.com/science-versus-myth/extrasensory-perceptions/nostradamus4.htm , a notable quatrain of nostradamus (century 2, quatrain 24) reads:

*beasts ferocious with hunger will cross the rivers,
the greater part of the battlefield will be against hister.
into a cage of iron will the great one be drawn,
when the child of germany observes nothing. *

nostradamus followers claim that the name “hister” is a direct reference to hitler. another quatrain refers to a ruthless leader born in western europe, to poor parents (as hitler was), and yet another one refers to hister’s conflict with asia and africa. skeptics ascribe the apparent accuracy of these quatrains (and others) to two major factors: problems with translation and simple coincidence.

 

[You]

http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/bernprof.jpg
While I just looked at this site and I’m not sure about its title, here it is;
listverse.com/2007/08/21/top-10-incorrupt-corpses/

 

[adrift]

Most academic sources maintain that the associations made between world events and Nostradamus’s quatrains are largely the result of misinterpretations or mistranslations (sometimes deliberate) or else are so tenuous as to render them useless as evidence of any genuine predictive power. Moreover, none of the sources listed offers any evidence that anyone has ever interpreted any of Nostradamus’s quatrains specifically enough to allow a clear identification of any event in advance.[3]

This is often interpreted to be a prediction of the war against Adolf Hitler’s Nazi state in the twentieth century. However, none of the reputable sources listed support this view. In fact all of them point out that the name ‘Hister’ (as Nostradamus himself explains in his Almanac for 1554[2]) in fact refers in his writings to the Danube, being mentioned (as elsewhere[3]) alongside ‘R[h]in’ (Rhine) – two rivers that formed the north-eastern frontier of the ancient Roman Empire. Un bien sçavant homme dans ce dernier quart se pourmenant le long de la riviere Hister dite Danube, he writes at Prose Presage 222, la terre se parfondant, dans ladite riviere se perdra (‘A very scholarly man during this last quarter, while walking along the river Hister known as Danube, the ground subsiding, in the said river shall be lost’). This is evidently based on a historical incident described by Nostradamus himself in his Traité des fardemens (Proem, p. 19, 1552), involving one Gaspar Ursinus Vellius consellier à Vienne en Austriche, qui un soir soy pourmenant le long du Dannube la terre se fendit, & tumba & se nya (‘a councillor at Vienna in Austria who one evening was walking along the Danube, the ground split apart and he fell in and was drowned’).

Similarly, the origin of the above quatrain itself seems to be historical: Gian Francesco Poggio Bracciolini’s De Varietate Fortunae (‘On the Vicissitudes of Fortune’) of around 1430[4] contrasts the fates of the German King Sigismund of Hungary (who, after being defeated at the battle of Nicopolis on the banks of the Danube in 1396, became King of Germany and attended a Church council at Constance, at the source of the Rhine, in 1414) and of his triumphant opponent, the Sultan Bayezid I (also known as Bajazet), who had meanwhile been captured and dragged all over Asia in an iron cage by Tamerlane, just as the verse recounts.

 

[Julia_Mae]

http://listverse.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/bernprof.jpg

You have to be careful with online images, a lot of them come from movies. Pretty sure the “sister” pictured above wouldn’t have been buried in lipstick and manicure.

 

[You]

You have to be careful with online images, a lot of them come from movies. Pretty sure the “sister” pictured above wouldn’t have been buried in lipstick and manicure.

catholic.org/clife/mary/body.php

 

[Julia_Mae]

catholic.org/clife/mary/body.php

I’m not arguing with incorruptible bodies being genuine. I’m saying the picture is not of any actual Saint, but most likely from a movie about one. .

 

[You]

I’m not arguing with incorruptible bodies being genuine. I’m saying the picture is not of any actual Saint, but most likely from a movie about one. .

It is her face, or was her face. 37 years after she died her body was exhumed and a wax cast was taken from her face and hands. Its the wax cast of her face that you see in the photo.

photo of Bernadette when she died.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

And a photo taken by a pilgrim in 1997.
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(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[abucs]

I find Fatima fascinating also and would particularly be interested in transcripts of Portuguese witnesses to the event.

In an informational age and such an important event i would have thought there would be much material. The book by John Haffert - Meet the Witnesses was the best thing i could find but would be grateful for online links to interview transcripts.

 

[Julia_Mae]

It is her face, or was her face. 37 years after she died her body was exhumed and a wax cast was taken from her face and hands. Its the wax cast of her face that you see in the photo.

Reference, please?

 

[You]

Reference, please?

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8389754&postcount=10
saints

 

[Julia_Mae]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8389754&postcount=10
saints

At this exhumation, it was noted that a small portion of the skin on the face had discoloured slightly, due probably to the washing the body had received and its exposure to the organisms of the air. Consequently, it was decided to cover the face and hands with light wax masks. The firm of Pierre Imans in Paris was contacted, and they agreed to make the necessary masks.

Which means that if the photo is from her exposed remains, we are not seeing her remains, we are seeing something made of wax with lipstick and fingernail polish. From your other link:

16 April 1879, Nevers, Nièvre, France of natural causes
body incorrupt
the sisters covered the body in wax, and it is on display in Nevers

Notice the two accounts do not agree. The picture is repeated all over the Internet, but has no original provenance. Even if it is of her body, it is not of her body, but of something covering her body. Looking at the black and white photo you posted above of her body and the photo right below it, I am wondering who straightened her nose. Here is a description of the body from the first opening:

"The coffin was opened in the presence of the Bishop of Nevers, the mayor of the town, his principal deputy, several canons and ourselves. We noticed no smell. The body was clothed in the habit of Bernadette’s order. The habit was damp. Only the face, hands and forearms were uncovered.

The head was tilted to the left. The face was dull white. The skin clung to the muscles and the muscles adhered to the bones. The sockets of the eyes were covered by the eye-lids. The brows were flat on the skin and stuck to the arches above the eyes. The lashes of the right eyelid were stuck to the skin. The nose was dilated and shrunken. The mouth was open slightly and it could be seen that the teeth were still in place. The hands, which were crossed on her breast, were perfectly preserved, as were the nails. The hands still held a rusting rosary. The veins on the forearms stood out.

Like the hands, the feet were wizened and the toenails were still intact (one of them was torn off when the corpse was washed). When the habits had been removed and the veil lifted from the head, the whole of the shriveled body could be seen, rigid and taut in every limb.

It was found that the hair, which had been cut short, was stuck to the head and still attached to the skull – that the ears were in a state of perfect preservation – that the left side of the body was slightly higher than the right from the hip up.

The stomach had caved in and was taut like the rest of the body. It sounded like cardboard when struck.

The left knee was not as large as the right. The ribs protruded as did the muscles in the limbs.

So rigid was the body that it could be rolled over and back for washing.

The lower parts of the body had turned slightly black. This seems to have been the result of the carbon of which quite large quantities were found in the coffin.

In witness of which we have duly drawn up this present statement in which all is truthfully recorded.

Nevers, September 22, 1909

Drs. Ch. David, A. Jourdan. "

Feet were “wizened” like the hands. Hands in the photo, not only look like those of a young girl, seriously, she has a manicure. And why was there a large amount of charcoal in the coffin?

I don’t care about this very much, really, but the photo isn’t of a body. IF there is a body under what we see, we have no idea of it’s state.

From another page:

Note that some incorrupt bodies that have been discovered and placed on display have had make up or wax added to them to improve their appearance. This is due to the fact that some bodies, while incorrupt, may not appear as beautiful as others, or may only be partially incorrupt while others are fully incorrupt. To those non-believers reading this page, these minor touch-ups are irrelevant when it comes to the state of a body’s incorruptibility; no amount of make up or wax could possibly prevent these bodies (some centuries old!) from decaying once placed on display. The majority of incorrupt bodies remain incorrupt after being put on display, regardless of whether they have been touched up or not.

Once you hermetically seal a dried out body, the bacterial action is retarded and so the flesh doesn’t rot. I have no idea what’s going in with these bodies, but the pictures don’t really illustrate anything, IMO. especially when there has been make up and such added.

 

[Protector]

whitecrayon;8387823]in this thread i would like to open up discussion concerning what i have found to be the three most intriguing enigmas of catholicism: the alleged mass sighting of a marian apparition at fatima, the uncanny symbolism in some of the quatrains of nostradamus, and the inexplicably slow deterioration of certain bones of a few catholic saints.

if any readers care to offer here any evidence for or against the idea that any or all of these three enigmas represent supernatural miracles, or any thoughts on the matter, i would greatly appreciate it. perhaps links to rational websites or recommendations of relevant literature. thank you

As a non-Catholic, and not an aficionado of Nostradamus either, the following may not carry any weight. But as regards the “slow deterioration of certain bones of a few catholic saints” the following may prove of interest to you.

“I have led you forty years in the wilderness; your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandal has not worn out on your foot.” (Deut. 29:5 D-R)

However, for a non-miraculous possibility, I have read somewhere that people living in remote areas used to dip eggs in a lime solution (whitewash) to keep the eggs from going rotten, for how long I don’t know. I am suggesting that maybe the custodians of saintly relics did likewise. Maybe the practice can be traced back to the sons of Israel who were instructed to take the bones of the dead Joseph out of Egypt with them when they left,

“And he made them swear to him, saying: God will visit you, Carry my bones with you out of this place:” (Gen.50:25 D-R)

Although the following article tells us that his body was embalmed after the custom of the Egyptians :-

“Joseph lived 110 years. He saw great-grandchildren from both his sons. Before he died, he told his brothers that God would one day bring them up from Egypt into the land that God promised their fathers. He made them swear to carry his bones out of Egypt into that land. Joseph died and was embalmed and put in a coffin in Egypt.”(By Shira Schoenberg. Jewish Virtual Library, )

Since the bones were carried out by Moses approx 400yrs later, it must have been either very good embalming, or there was Divine intervention. I would prefer to accept the latter.

Protector.

Protector

 

[You]

Which means that if the photo is from her exposed remains, we are not seeing her remains, we are seeing something made of wax with lipstick and fingernail polish. From your other link:

Notice the two accounts do not agree. The picture is repeated all over the Internet, but has no original provenance. Even if it is of her body, it is not of her body, but of something covering her body. Looking at the black and white photo you posted above of her body and the photo right below it, I am wondering who straightened her nose. Here is a description of the body from the first opening:

Feet were “wizened” like the hands. Hands in the photo, not only look like those of a young girl, seriously, she has a manicure. And why was there a large amount of charcoal in the coffin?

I don’t care about this very much, really, but the photo isn’t of a body. IF there is a body under what we see, we have no idea of it’s state.

From another page:

Once you hermetically seal a dried out body, the bacterial action is retarded and so the flesh doesn’t rot. I have no idea what’s going in with these bodies, but the pictures don’t really illustrate anything, IMO. especially when there has been make up and such added.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=8391935&postcount=12

This is where I told you a wax mask was made from her face and a wax cast taken from her hands. I also gave you several links with all that info within the link.

I don’t know if the sisters could hermetically seal coffins 122 years ago, in any event the human body contains, within and without, billions of natural bacteria. And even without bacteria soft tissue will liquify fairly quickly.
I am not sure that the definition of incorruptible means that the body will not dry out, perhaps it means that the tissue does not decompose as it would with everyone else.
A dead body which is fully hydrated and plump after 122 years would truly be a miracle, but I would not expect tissue to retain its water forever.
Maybe someone should do comparative studies and examine a joe soap corpse which has been buried for 122 years so that you would have an immediate visual representation of the natural course of events and the the unusual absence of the natural course.

I saw the difference in the photo of her when she had just died, her nose has a curve. I don’t know if you have seen many dead bodies but the face does slacken a lot when dead, the jaw can fall back and inwards pulling the corners of the mouth down and the point of the nose is pulled very slightly also.

It didn’t say charcoal, it said carbon, so maybe soot or paper or flowers which has decomposed?

 

[You]

As a non-Catholic, and not an aficionado of Nostradamus either, the following may not carry any weight. But as regards the “slow deterioration of certain bones of a few catholic saints” the following may prove of interest to you.

However, for a non-miraculous possibility, I have read somewhere that people living in remote areas used to dip eggs in a lime solution (whitewash) to keep the eggs from going rotten, for how long I don’t know. I am suggesting that maybe the custodians of saintly relics did likewise. Maybe the practice can be traced back to the sons of Israel who were instructed to take the bones of the dead Joseph out of Egypt with them when they left,

Although the following article tells us that his body was embalmed after the custom of the Egyptians :-

Since the bones were carried out by Moses approx 400yrs later, it must have been either very good embalming, or there was Divine intervention. I would prefer to accept the latter.

Protector.

Protector

You are right that people did have ways of preserving eggs. I’ve never heard of the whitewash technique. But most people would use sodium silicate, a thick clear liquid also known as water-glass. You will get it from any ceramic supplier as its used as a deflocculant for making slip.
As egg shells are porous because the developing chick needs to breath air, these pores need to be blocked if you want to stop the air from spoiling the egg when preserving it.
I think eggs in sodium silicate will keep for about a year, but suggest some cautious experiments first. Or just stick to fresh eggs.
I think if Moses wanted to carry out bones then the bones would remain as bones until he had done that.