Our Lady of Guadalupe

[Mort_Alz]

This is a complicated question, so I’m going to make a few disclaimers here:

I believe Mary is the Mother of God.
I believe we can have intercession and help from her if we ask her.
I do not believe that doing these things means we worship her.
I believe doing these things was/is encouraged by Jesus who was mothered by her.
I believe that doing these things ultimately is worship of Christ and elevates Him.
I believe that without such dogmas as the Immaculate Conception, the divinity of Christ may be questioned.

That being said, I DO think that because of such rigorous (and, I believe righteous) defenses given to Our Lady and the God-appointed Mother of the Church, it has opened up some ABUSES of said dogmas and that Protestants are not always wrong when they point some of these out to us as honoring her ABOVE God which IS sinful (and Mary [let alone Christ] would never condone it). I am talking specifically about the tendencies primarily in Mexico (because of the apparition) for Catholics to sometimes mistakenly honor her above God. Not that they are consciously doing so, but that it happens nonetheless and needs to be paid attention to. I have literally heard a Catholic from Mexico say “Sometimes, we worship her even above the Father.”

That’s alarming to me. What frustrates me is that there is little evidence that the Church does much to fix this abuse. The only response I see being given to Protestants where they bring up actual instances of devotional abuse is how Catholics do not worship Mary, how her being venerated in turn gives worship to Christ, etc. While the Church is sometimes slow to fix liturgical abuses in general, I have been very frustrated that there has not been a closer inspection of Catholicism in these very Marian areas. I know that what is happening theologically and “behind the scenes” ultimately gives the true glory and honor to Christ, but what is perceived (and not erroneously so) is that Jesus is VERY much in the background relative to Mary in these places.

Some things that I am NOT looking for in responses:

Anything that simply repeats what I have already stated in the disclaimer.
Any accusation that I seek to rob Mary of any God-commanded honor that is due her (because I don’t).

I am simply trying to say that our Separated Brethren are not wrong when they cite instances of genuine abuse.

Any thoughts or comments?

 

[purplesunshine]

It’s wrong to idolotize anyone.

That being said, Catholics are not the only people guilty of doing so. Better someone be too absorbed in Mary than in Billy Gram or Michael Jordon.

As far as sites where Mary appeared. I think it’s really ok that Jesus isn’t the draw. There is something innately “safe” about comming to a woman. When a child gets lost we now train them to find another mommy and ask for help. (even over an male officer). It’s simply built in. Women car salespersons (even old black ladies) can literally sell 3 times more cars becuase people trust them more.

 

[Joe_5859]

I am simply trying to say that our Separated Brethren are not wrong when they cite instances of genuine abuse.

Any thoughts or comments?

That’s fine. But I would be extremely reticent in taking this or that anecdotal example and extrapolating it to apply to a whole group of people. For example, just because you heard one Mexican Catholic make that over-the-top statement doesn’t mean that we should think that all (or even most) Mexican Marian devotion must be suspect. All we can really infer from that story is that one individual Catholic has it wrong (and that’s assumming the person wasn’t just exaggerating or waxing poetic).

If someone legitimately and sincerely claims that they worship Mary above the Father, yes, they are wrong and should be gently corrected. I have never personally encountered such a person.

 

[puzzleannie]

This, it has opened up some ABUSES of said dogmas and that Protestants are not always wrong when they point some of these out to us as honoring her ABOVE God which IS sinful (and Mary [let alone Christ] would never condone it). I am talking specifically about the tendencies primarily in Mexico (because of the apparition) for Catholics to sometimes mistakenly honor her above God. Not that they are consciously doing so, but that it happens nonetheless and needs to be paid attention to. I have literally heard a Catholic from Mexico say “Sometimes, we worship her even above the Father.” :-?

please provide evidence, not anecdotal, for your claim.
I work among primarily Mexicans, both recently arrived and those who have been here for generations, those who practice traditional forms of popular piety, and those who are more “Americanized” and never have I heard such a statement even from those least well catechized. Ever. Never.

you gave a direct quote. Who said it? When? Where? in what context?

 

[LilHomemaker]

That being said, I DO think that because of such rigorous (and, I believe righteous) defenses given to Our Lady and the God-appointed Mother of the Church, it has opened up some ABUSES of said dogmas and that Protestants are not always wrong when they point some of these out to us as honoring her ABOVE God which IS sinful (and Mary [let alone Christ] would never condone it). I am talking specifically about the tendencies primarily in Mexico (because of the apparition) for Catholics to sometimes mistakenly honor her above God. Not that they are consciously doing so, but that it happens nonetheless and needs to be paid attention to. I have literally heard a Catholic from Mexico say “Sometimes, we worship her even above the Father.”

That’s alarming to me. What frustrates me is that there is little evidence that the Church does much to fix this abuse. The only response I see being given to Protestants where they bring up actual instances of devotional abuse is how Catholics do not worship Mary, how her being venerated in turn gives worship to Christ, etc. While the Church is sometimes slow to fix liturgical abuses in general, I have been very frustrated that there has not been a closer inspection of Catholicism in these very Marian areas. I know that what is happening theologically and “behind the scenes” ultimately gives the true glory and honor to Christ, but what is perceived (and not erroneously so) is that Jesus is VERY much in the background relative to Mary in these places.

I am simply trying to say that our Separated Brethren are not wrong when they cite instances of genuine abuse.

Any thoughts or comments?

I think I would first ask also, what is your source? Who said Mexican’s worship Mary above God. Was it one Mexican? Was it an article? Was it a protestant? The reason I am asking is because an article or a protestant could just have a misunderstanding of Catholic beliefs, especially if they see how much Mexicans do honor Our Lady of Guadalupe. Mexico has very good reasons to be so devoted to her.
The other thing, was it someone from Mexico speaking and could their statement be misunderstood if their English wasn’t so great or clear.

My other thing is that protestants truly don’t understand a Catholic’s devotion to Mary and just believe that Catholic’s worship her and there are many websites and books and articles and preachings where they go on and on talking about this, even though they don’t know what they are talking about.

I am a Catholic revert and asked the same thing before returning. I didn’t understand honoring Mary and thought it was worship but when seeked council and understanding from the Catholic Church I was always instructed correctly and told Catholics are not to worship Mary but honor her. I haven’t met anyone who says they worship her above God.

It was actually Our Lady of Guadalupe that played a huge role in my return.

 

[White_Peony]

I love our Lady of Guadalupe! But she must be so offended by this! All she wants is for people to come to her Son. Oh, the pain she must be suffering!

 

[Mrs_V]

I married into the Latino culture. One thing I have noticed, in our area at least, is how much they all tend to love and honor their mothers. It is a big deal to show mom how much you are thankful for her. How much more would they show their love and thankfulness to the mother of their savior?

Images of La Virgencita are all over our house. She is my constant companion as I learn to be a good mother, and a shoulder for me to lean on when I need it.

 

[puzzleannie]

I love our Lady of Guadalupe! But she must be so offended by this! All she wants is for people to come to her Son. Oh, the pain she must be suffering!

what is making her suffer, other than the sins people commit against her son.
what do you read on this thread that makes her suffer. Do you seriously think her son is offended by any honor paid to his mother? Do you seriously think any honor paid to his mother goes anywhere else than directly to her Son? Do you seriously think she says anything else to her children who come to her than “Do whatever He tells you.”?