Our moral choices or code should not be forced on other people?

[Jack_245814]

Hi everyone. A friend of mine justifies abortion and homosexual marriage by saying that our moral code should not be forced upon other people. How do I counter this?

Morality is objective, not relativistic. There is no “it’s right for you and not for me”, at least not by the Catholic view. Therefore, if morality is objective, it’s perfectly fine to “force it on other people” - just like a good Math teacher won’t let you say that 1 + 2 = 7.

As for arguments for why morality is objective . . . well that’s opening up a whole 'nother can of worms. I’d recommend doing some research on the philosophical arguments on this subject: they’re very interesting, but I haven’t read any philosophy in a while.

 

[sanctamaria17]

That’s not homosexuality

Homosexuality: Attraction to someone of the same sex. Involves consenting adults.

Pedophilia: Attraction to children, irregardless of sex.

I know about NAMBLA. They’re sick. Homosexuality, while disordered is not that and many queer people I know would kill someone for hurting a child like that.

I’m bisexual and I’m not a pedophile. Believe it or not, I’m actually chaste. I want to show people that it is possible to be queer, Catholic and chaste and I will fight to spread the teachings of chastity and also for my queer brothers and sisters to be treated with dignity and not as if they are horrible scum of the earth who are sure to damage children for life. However, a true pedophile should be kept from children, as the temptation would be great. The vast majority of homosexuals are not pedophiles. A misplaced attraction does not create a bad person and believe it or not, we actually can be chaste and normal. However, with regards to consensual, adult sexuality, moral or not, I believe the secular govn’t should butt out.

 

[Holly3278]

Morality is objective, not relativistic. There is no “it’s right for you and not for me”, at least not by the Catholic view. Therefore, if morality is objective, it’s perfectly fine to “force it on other people” - just like a good Math teacher won’t let you say that 1 + 2 = 7.

As for arguments for why morality is objective . . . well that’s opening up a whole 'nother can of worms. I’d recommend doing some research on the philosophical arguments on this subject: they’re very interesting, but I haven’t read any philosophy in a while.

Oh ok. I’m not sure I understand how morality being objective means that it can be forced upon other people though. Could you please explain?

 

[Jack_245814]

Oh ok. I’m not sure I understand how morality being objective means that it can be forced upon other people though. Could you please explain?

Well let’s take the example of murder first: virtually everyone agrees that murder is objectively wrong, even if some individual considers it right. An individual would still be jailed for murder whether he thought it was okay or not (though in some cases they might put you in a mental asylum etc. etc.)

It’s the same with abortion. The Catholic Church teaches that abortion is objectively wrong, as it is the destruction of an innocent life. Therefore it’s perfectly reasonable to ban abortion - to protect the baby. Yes some women will try to have abortions anyway and possibly injure themselves, but when this happen it’s totally their choice: we’re not allowing them to do it, they do it anyway, and get hurt.

In the case of homosexual marriage things become more complicated. I suppose one line of arguing is that one gay person is harming another by marrying him/her because it is furthering their disordered lifestyle, causing them to descend further into sin. There are also various sociological arguments against gay marriage, which would probably work better if the person is atheistic/agnostic but it’d take too long to get into them here (Catholic Answers has quite a bit of data on that, so you can find it there).

It could be asked how the teachings of the Church accurately reflect our consciences, and that is, of course, opening up a 'nother can of worms. You can either leave the Church out of it entirely and argue in both cases based on the morality common to all humanity, or, if the person is already a Christian, you can try to defend the sanctity of the Catholic Church theologically. Neither one of those options is very easy but I guess this sort of stuff never is

Good luck, hope I was of some help!

 

[Holly3278]

Well let’s take the example of murder first: virtually everyone agrees that murder is objectively wrong, even if some individual considers it right. An individual would still be jailed for murder whether he thought it was okay or not (though in some cases they might put you in a mental asylum etc. etc.)

It’s the same with abortion. The Catholic Church teaches that abortion is objectively wrong, as it is the destruction of an innocent life. Therefore it’s perfectly reasonable to ban abortion - to protect the baby. Yes some women will try to have abortions anyway and possibly injure themselves, but when this happen it’s totally their choice: we’re not allowing them to do it, they do it anyway, and get hurt.

In the case of homosexual marriage things become more complicated. I suppose one line of arguing is that one gay person is harming another by marrying him/her because it is furthering their disordered lifestyle, causing them to descend further into sin. There are also various sociological arguments against gay marriage, which would probably work better if the person is atheistic/agnostic but it’d take too long to get into them here (Catholic Answers has quite a bit of data on that, so you can find it there).

It could be asked how the teachings of the Church accurately reflect our consciences, and that is, of course, opening up a 'nother can of worms. You can either leave the Church out of it entirely and argue in both cases based on the morality common to all humanity, or, if the person is already a Christian, you can try to defend the sanctity of the Catholic Church theologically. Neither one of those options is very easy but I guess this sort of stuff never is

Good luck, hope I was of some help!

Thank you for your advice! You were of help!

 

[Maxply]

This is off-track, and specifically for Sanctamaria. . . I think what you’re sensing is that most of us are anxious and upset about the Great Push for Sodomite Acceptance.

The Great Push has been VERY undemocratic. It has relied largely on media manipulation and propaganda. It has relied on feeding the public misinformation about homosexuality. It has relied, I think, on junk argumentation.

But since you’re here and people are angry about the issue of “gay marriage”, you’re kind of in a place where you’re going to hear people (like me, I should say) who are or seem anti-gay. . . anti-gay because of the marriage issue, not because of any other reason.

Plenty of people would be content to just let sodomites do their thing quietly. But forcing so-called gay marriage and attempting to use public schools to propagandize (and encourage) sodomy gets a lot of people upset. (Especially if the school children aren’t at a point of sexual interest yet).

But I subscribe to the hate the sin, love the sinner doctrine. I think this is the way to go. It’s tough to help the sinner on this issue, since many of the sodomite sinners really LOVE to do this sin.

 

[kage_ar]

In their eyes, they are just spouses. And a human life isn’t being maltreated, as in the case of slavery. Do two people having premarital sex (another mortal sin but perfectly legal) have any impact on you? So why do two people of the same sex committing to each other have any impact on your choices and religious views? You don’t have to accept it if you don’t want to. Just let them make their own decisions and take whatever consequences.

Immoral acts (pre marital and extramarital sex for example) have an impact on each of us. STDs are rampant. Each of us pay for that through higher taxes to treat then uninsured &/or higher insurance premiums to treat the insured.

When people are having sex outside of marriage, they very often use contraception. When that contraception fails, they have an abortion. That pre/extramarital sex DOES impact innocent people.

One last thing, about the injury to the institution of marriage.

Let’s say you work very hard to get into XYZ University. You sacrifice and make it through to get a Degree from this prestigious school.

After you graduate, you find that this same school is selling the same degree on the website for $150.

Do you not think that this will have a negative impact on what your degree stands for? That this legal degree will somehow dilute what your degree stands for when you go to seek a carreer?

One last thing. All sin, every sin that every person committs, has an impact on other people - there is no sin that does not touch others.

 

[PaulinVA]

THowever, with regards to consensual, adult sexuality, moral or not, I believe the secular govn’t should butt out.

SanctaMaria, what does this mean? Does this mean that the government should sanction/make legal all relationships, or no relationships? Does it mean the status quo is acceptable or should there be some changes?

I must say that I find it odd that a group of people define themselves by who they want to have sex with. That identification seems to be stronger than family, church, or anything else. Why is that?

And why, as a "opt-in"sexual minority, do they want to change the face of American society to accommodate them? No, not accommodate, affirm.

 

[Holly3278]

There have been some very good points in this thread and I hope that the thread continues. I am really enjoying reading this and learning.

 

[joandarc2008]

OK, I am pro-life and a “hate the sin not the sinner” mentality. I also had a period of my life before I came to the church where I wondered if I too may be bisexual. It was a very difficult time in my life. I found that most of the lesbians I met gave me the advice that I should stick to men unless I got nothing from them because life is much easier. I have gotten myself back together, found my way back to the Church, and met a man I bound with emotionally, spiritually, mentally, etc. with to spend the rest of my life with. All that said - sancti - I admire you. You do have some true ethics and morals.

I do truly believe that in this country we have a seperation of church and state. No, I do not think abortion should be legal. It hurts an innocent victim. I also do not think that marriage of “same-sex” couples should be legal as it is called marriage. I believe however that when it comes to things such as hospitals and dying people and bereavement that we should show some compassion. Too often at the end of life parents that haven’t spoken to their children in years have kicked the “signifigant other” out of the hospital and filed restraining orders on their behalf when they were too sick to do anything about it just because they didn’t agree with the lifestyle. Who in that situation is hurting whom? I think we need to find a situation that works without undermining the spiritual deifinition of marriage that is accepted in almost every religion.

I also want to say this - homosexuality is not pedophilia. They are two entirely different things. My cousin’s four year old daughter was molested over a period of sixteen months starting when she was two by a very heterosexual very adult male.

God Bless,

 

[Holly3278]

OK, I am pro-life and a “hate the sin not the sinner” mentality. I also had a period of my life before I came to the church where I wondered if I too may be bisexual. It was a very difficult time in my life. I found that most of the lesbians I met gave me the advice that I should stick to men unless I got nothing from them because life is much easier. I have gotten myself back together, found my way back to the Church, and met a man I bound with emotionally, spiritually, mentally, etc. with to spend the rest of my life with. All that said - sancti - I admire you. You do have some true ethics and morals.

I do truly believe that in this country we have a seperation of church and state. No, I do not think abortion should be legal. It hurts an innocent victim. I also do not think that marriage of “same-sex” couples should be legal as it is called marriage. I believe however that when it comes to things such as hospitals and dying people and bereavement that we should show some compassion. Too often at the end of life parents that haven’t spoken to their children in years have kicked the “signifigant other” out of the hospital and filed restraining orders on their behalf when they were too sick to do anything about it just because they didn’t agree with the lifestyle. Who in that situation is hurting whom? I think we need to find a situation that works without undermining the spiritual deifinition of marriage that is accepted in almost every religion.

I also want to say this - homosexuality is not pedophilia. They are two entirely different things. My cousin’s four year old daughter was molested over a period of sixteen months starting when she was two by a very heterosexual very adult male.

God Bless,

I agree with you. I also believe that homosexuals should have visiting rights granted to their partners. But that is just me. My view very well could be incompatible with what the Church would say or does say. If it is, I would appreciate someone informing me of this and why it is an incompatible view so that I may change my view. I seek to always be in agreement with the Magisterium on all things.

 

[marietta]

Yes, but as the Catholic Church teaches, marriage is the foundation of society. If you pervert marriage, you pervert society. If you destroy marriage, you destroy society.

If one “pervert” Catholic marriage, one “pervert” Catholic society. If one “destroy” Catholic marriage, one “destroy” Catholic society.

You just don’t get to call the shots for everybody.

marietta

 

[Holly3278]

If one “pervert” Catholic marriage, one “pervert” Catholic society. If one “destroy” Catholic marriage, one “destroy” Catholic society.

You just don’t get to call the shots for everybody.

marietta

I hate to tell you this (well, not really) but the Catholic Church is true in teaching that marriage is the foundation of society and that marriage is between one man and one woman. Once the definition of marriage has been perverted, the rest of society will become more and more perverted as well. And by the way, I’m not calling the shots for anyone.

 

[Salonika]

A child needs a mother and a father to be raised normally.

Preferably a child will be raised by a mother and father who loves and cares for them. If this is not possible then they need to raised by adults who love and care for them. Loving grandparents a mother and stepfather, father and stepmother can also raise children normally.

Children can also be raised normally by one parent as long as the parents interacts healthily with adults of the opposite sex.

Wish some people would realise that for most adults having a child is not an achievement but raising it is.

joandarc2008:

I also want to say this - homosexuality is not pedophilia. They are two entirely different things. My cousin’s four year old daughter was molested over a period of sixteen months starting when she was two by a very heterosexual very adult male.

Agree with this comment - thinking homosexuality equals pedophilia actually makes it easier for some pedaphiles to get access to their victims and for their victims to convince people that what they say happened did not happen.

 

[Holly3278]

Preferably a child will be raised by a mother and father who loves and cares for them. If this is not possible then they need to raised by adults who love and care for them. Loving grandparents a mother and stepfather, father and stepmother can also raise children normally.

Children can also be raised normally by one parent as long as the parents interacts healthily with adults of the opposite sex.

Wish some people would realise that for most adults having a child is not an achievement but raising it is.

Agree with this comment - thinking homosexuality equals pedophilia actually makes it easier for some pedaphiles to get access to their victims and for their victims to convince people that what they say happened did not happen.

Yes, you are right about a child being raised normally by other adults. However, a child cannot be raised normally by a gay couple.

 

[marietta]

Yes, you are right about a child being raised normally by other adults. However, a child cannot be raised normally by a gay couple.

Remember this: there are thousands upon thousands of families - those including a father and a mother - who also cannot raise a child with any normalcy.

marietta

 

[marietta]

I hate to tell you this (well, not really) but the Catholic Church is true in teaching that marriage is the foundation of society and that marriage is between one man and one woman. Once the definition of marriage has been perverted, the rest of society will become more and more perverted as well. And by the way, I’m not calling the shots for anyone.

The Catholic Church is truthful? Or does the Catholic Church have the truth market cornered?

“Once the definition of marriage has been perverted . . .” A mere change in words? Or a complete law and morality overhaul before the utter corruption of society, mankind, and life itself occurs? What is the sequence of events in this scenario?

You, as a member of the Catholic Church, deign to call the shots - my point was that the Catholic Church (and you, by default) cannot call the shots for everybody. Why can’t you just be satisfied with calling the morality/spirituality shots for yourselves?

I don’t know whether to be amused or disheartened by such intolerance.

marietta

 

[Salonika]

Holly3278:

Yes, you are right about a child being raised normally by other adults. However, a child cannot be raised normally by a gay couple.

However, given the state some of the marriages, including some described on this forum I think some children would be better raised by gay couples in a stable happy relationship than have to endure the stormy, unhealthy atmosphere caused by parents who fight in front of them and make them pawns in their battles with each other.
Originally Posted by joandarc2008:

I also want to say this - homosexuality is not pedophilia. They are two entirely different things. My cousin’s four year old daughter was molested over a period of sixteen months starting when she was two by a very heterosexual very adult male.

Reply by Salonika - Agree with this comment - thinking homosexuality equals pedophilia actually makes it easier for some pedaphiles to get access to their victims and for their victims to convince people that what they say happened did not happen.

The above, as most readers probably worked out, was the post I was replying to. It came up in preview but not the final.

Wonder if this will happen again.

 

[Holly3278]

However, given the state some of the marriages, including some described on this forum I think some children would be better raised by gay couples in a stable happy relationship than have to endure the stormy, unhealthy atmosphere caused by parents who fight in front of them and make them pawns in their battles with each other.

The above, as most readers probably worked out, was the post I was replying to. It came up in preview but not the final.

Wonder if this will happen again.

I’m sorry but I disagree. A gay couple is never a good situation for a child to be involved with. Besides, there are alternatives to dysfunctional families such as foster homes.

 

[Holly3278]

The Catholic Church is truthful? Or does the Catholic Church have the truth market cornered?

“Once the definition of marriage has been perverted . . .” A mere change in words? Or a complete law and morality overhaul before the utter corruption of society, mankind, and life itself occurs? What is the sequence of events in this scenario?

You, as a member of the Catholic Church, deign to call the shots - my point was that the Catholic Church (and you, by default) cannot call the shots for everybody. Why can’t you just be satisfied with calling the morality/spirituality shots for yourselves?

I don’t know whether to be amused or disheartened by such intolerance.

marietta

The Catholic Church contains all of the spiritual and moral truth that we, as humans, need.

If gay marriage becomes widespread, that would be indicative of a mass overhaul of the morality in this nation. It would be just one indicator but an indicator it would be. We must stop this nation’s downward spiral before it is too late and our society is ruined.

As for imposing our morality on other people, it is not because we want to run your life. It is because we want to protect society from evils such as gay marriage and abortion.

As for intolerance, if you mean intolerance of things like gay marriage and abortion, I’m proud to be called intolerant.