Our Pope is only human, but

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porthos11 said:
Kissing a ring is not “off”; it is a tradition showing respect for the office. No one can be faulted for that. It’s about the office, not the man, who is merely a holder of the office.

Gah, I wish Catholics would stop being so “offended” by the notion of ring-kissing. It shows what you believe about the divinely-instituted office of Bishop.
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Well, those who respect him so much should wait to kiss his ring until after he offers it.
If he doesn’t offer it, well, you aren’t entitled to do it. It is disrespectful to criticize him for objecting when someone seizes the chance to do it before being offered. It is also disrespectful to put him down because someone asked for the privilege of kissing his ring and he declined to let them do it. If it was really believed that it was a privilege, then what gives any room to complain if you don’t get it? That’s humility? Not much.

That’s so backwards, I don’t know where to start…this whole, “it is about your office, it isn’t about you” thing. Oh, so you respect the office but the actual person, not so much? That’s really mixed up.
 
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But this topic isn’t really about the tradition of ring kissing.
It’s taking a simple human response to aggressive behavior and blowing out of proportion, and using it to criticise the Pope in light of tradition.

That is what is shameful here.

The Pope demonstrates Christian forgiveness here, by apologizing for the incident pre-emptively, without waiting for the person in the crowd to apologize (which she/he really should have).
I admire his example and would like to emulate it.
(radical forgiveness is a longstanding tradition in Catholicism 🙂 )
 
JanR said:
Our Pope is only human, and I understand he is somewhat of a liberal reformer, but these beloved traditions are part of what makes our Church so special and our Catholic teachings and practices so beautiful.

It’s a shame he doesn’t seem to appreciate that.
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He is at the seat of Peter, the vicar of Christ on earth. The devil will never overcome the Papacy, we know this. The Church needed JPII for his teachings. The Church needed Benedict for his theology. The Church needs Francis for his social justice. All these are needed and God sends us the type of Pope we need at the correct time.

Stop using terms such as “liberal” or “traditional” to degrade the Pope simply because God Himself didn’t pick the type of Pope you want
 
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Dolphin said:
Stop using terms such as “liberal” or “traditional” to degrade the Pope simply because God Himself didn’t pick the type of Pope you want
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Let’s also remember that the deliberate separation of the Popes from the worldly power associated with their position as Vicar of Christ is something that they have been gradually working at. This way of expressing the dignity of the office gradually built up, and then gradually the Popes have been stepping away from it. The coat of arms of Vatican City still has a papal tiara on it, but no Pope since Paul VI has elected to have a papal coronation, even though to was provided for in his planning for his successor.

Let’s remember that the Popes were the lords of the papal states until 1870. A lot of the trappings of the papacy are tied to the Pope’s former position as not just the head of the Church but also as a substantial secular ruler and as a power broker in European politics. Vatican City has emerged more and more as a location meant to keep the Holy See free of that entanglement: that is, both the entanglement of being a secular ruler and the entanglement of being subject to secular rulers.
 
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It wouldn’t have been so bad if he weren’t a liberal reformer.

😇
 
Tis_Bearself said:
I don’t see people kissing a ring as being a “beloved tradition” either
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I don’t like it, never have. To me it seems like an artifact of the Pope as a worldly sovereign. I don’t think the Papacy should adopt or maintain the trappings of secular monarchs.

Edit: just saw that @PetraG explained this much better than I!
 
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I was responding more to the comment that kissing the ring is ‘off’. It was phrased as a general statement not particular to this situation. For this situation I have already stated that the womans action was uncalled for and that I don’t fault the Pope for what I consider an understandable and even appropriate response. Someone else made this thread about ring kissing.

Yes you kiss the ring when it is offered. And kissing a Bishop 's ring is not a practice that is ‘off’. It’s not limited to the Pope. It is customary to kiss a Bishop’s ring, especially your own Bishop’s.

As a Catholic I would gladly kiss a Bishop’s ring even if I despise the man (I speak hypothetically). Because I still recognize the dignity of the office he bears.
 
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I think the traditional, more ritualized modes of showing respect and the Pope reciprocating were much more wise in general. Rather than have the crowd climb all over one another to get a look/touch/grab, why not put the Pope in a place where all can see and where he can give blessings instead of handshakes (or slaps…).

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What of the history of kissing a Bishop’s ring then – how do you explain that?
 
JanR said:
It has been a long-standing and lovely devotion for Catholics to kiss the Pope;s ring out of reverence and respect… these beloved traditions are part of what makes our Church so special
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Do you really mean to say that kissing rings makes and breaks how special the Church is?
 
No, kissing the ring doesn’t make or break how special the Church is. It’s part of a special devotion unique to our Church, that has been in practice from as far back as I can remember (nearing 70, here), when one was granted an audience with the Pope. It was done out of reverence and respect. And love.

Look, Folks, I did acknowledge that he apologized, and I never said he wasn’t a good man. It just shocked me when I saw the video of him slapping the lady’s hand away. I have never known of a Pope to slap anyone.

When I saw the video on TV, it didn’t appear to me that she had “yanked” him, but maybe looking close up, she did.

We do have the right to point out things about the Holy Father that take us aback when we see them. That’s just as human a response as his was of loosing himself from her grip in the manner that he did.

Didn’t I acknowledge that our Pope is “only human”?

In view of what happened to Pope John Paul II during one of his public appearances, I can understand the security concern. Watching the video, I didn’t think the lady looked threatening. She may have been overly enthusiastic, but I didn’t sense any ill intent in her.

What I saw in the video was something I hadn’t been expecting to see. That’s all.

Pope Francis is a very holy man. I see that I’ve offended a lot of Folks, here. For that, and to our Holy Father, I apologize.

Can we move on?
 
I hope that we can get on with the important tradition of following the Popes guidance from the Seat of Peter with obedience and humility. Becoming again what the Catholic Church represented in the world as a force for scriptural values. Since Pope Francis’ election I’ve heard numerous homilies urging caution about being dragged into doubt about his authority. He represents that unique tenet, that we are One Church. It can’t be holy to attack that authoritative Seat as being untrustworthy or worse, evil. That can only come from Satan.
 
JanR said:
No, kissing the ring doesn’t make or break how special the Church is. It’s part of a special devotion unique to our Church…
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That is just the problem; it isn’t unique. It is the way kings were treated in the West.

The surviving monarchies of Europe have learned since the World Wars that accepting homage that is more fitting for a deity isn’t the way monarchies are preserved. This leaves the Popes with the problem of how to handle traditions that grew up when the monarchies of Western Europe themselves were seen as governmental bodies instituted by Providence.

I mean that it isn’t that the traditions of the past were wrong, per se. It is that they don’t always transmit the same meaning that they did when the traditions were instituted. The tumult of the 20th century has left us in the 21st century looking again at which traditions ought to be preserved (or revived) and which really don’t carry the meaning they once did.

Just as it is up to Queen Elizabeth II to decide what royal protocol is concerning her, which traditions will be kept and which won’t, it is up to each Pope to decide which protocols he will preserve and which will be changed. Being true monarchs, each enjoys that kind of absolute authority concerning their person and their position.
JanR said:
I have never known of a Pope to slap anyone.
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Well, I’ve never known anyone to grab any Pope as that woman grabbed Pope Francis. She got him from behind and once she had him, she literally would not let go. I think perhaps he got ahead of his security detail? In any event, I don’t think the situation as a whole has ever come up.
 
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@JanR
Looking at the video in slow motion, one can see that as the Pope turned, a taller woman next to the Asian woman grabbed him hard enough for him to grimace in pain.

She pulled him around and towards her, then seemingly guided his hand towards the Asian woman, who may not have noticed the grabbing and just thought the Pope had turned back to her, so she held on to his hand.

I do not have a problem with the Pope’s reaction. He looked grumpy as he walked away, but as we get older, gravity causes our faces to look grumpy (alas!).

As to the ring-kissing, @Tis_Bearself, where do you think the Mafia got the idea 😉
 
Judging by how hard she yanked him, I would have slapped her hand too.
 
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Annie said:
a taller woman next to the Asian woman grabbed him hard enough for him to grimace in pain.
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I’d kind of like to know why that taller woman did that. It almost looked as though she was trying to provoke a reaction because she seemed to deliberately yank him into the Asian woman and then immediately started snapping shots.
 
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