Our priest humilated a woman

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The Monday AM mass @ our parish had only 6-7 people in attendance. Father attempted to “force” a woman to stand by repeatedly correcting her during the Mass. She is, without a doubt, “special”. She kneels from the Our Father on and has for years. She bothers no one. And she told me once that the “handshaking” part makes her very anxious so that is one way for her to avoid it. After Mass, before leaving the altar, Father tried to explain his point by saying ‘the Vatican’ has given the directive to stand". Well I have printed out the Dubium re: this from Cardinal George and reponse from Cardinal Arinze. He will receive it before the sun sets tomorrow. Why does this bother some priests? I think it is a control/anger issue. Two other parishes within this area don’t even have this issue; they kneel @ the Agnus Dei and after Holy Communion. Same diocese. Grrrrrrr!
 
Before you hand the priest that, why not speak to him in private? before you even do that, why not speak with the woman who you feel was slighted? isn’t it up to her to speak to the priest? does she know you want to speak to the priest? or hand him the info?

instead of pointing this and that out to him, why not speak to him first? do it in a charitable way. i think it is up to the woman who you feel was slighted for her to talk to the priest for herself. she might get embarassed if you speak to him on her behalf. she may not, but that is up to her to decide.

always speak to a priest in charity. don’t let your feelings get in the way. remember, he is a priest and he must be respected as such because he is a servant of God, and when you speak to a priest it is like speaking to Christ Himself. show him nothing but respect. chances are you are going to get a very favorable response.
 
It sounds like the priest just wants to be obedient to the Vatican. Maybe he should have done it more discreetly.
With only 6 or7 people there she sould have plenty of room to sit far away from anyone else to avoid shaking anyone’s hand.
 
MJE said:
The Monday AM mass @ our parish had only 6-7 people in attendance. Father attempted to “force” a woman to stand by repeatedly correcting her during the Mass. She is, without a doubt, “special”. She kneels from the Our Father on and has for years. She bothers no one. And she told me once that the “handshaking” part makes her very anxious so that is one way for her to avoid it. After Mass, before leaving the altar, Father tried to explain his point by saying ‘the Vatican’ has given the directive to stand". Well I have printed out the Dubium re: this from Cardinal George and reponse from Cardinal Arinze. He will receive it before the sun sets tomorrow. Why does this bother some priests? I think it is a control/anger issue. Two other parishes within this area don’t even have this issue; they kneel @ the Agnus Dei and after Holy Communion. Same diocese. Grrrrrrr!
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IS it possible that the two other parishes are not following the Bishops directive to stand AFTER the Lamb of God?
 
It isn’t the Vatican that is telling people to stand during the Consecration. It is the USCCB.

The English translation of the GIRM for use in Australia and New Zealand was just released (at long last).

The significant part that the US Bishops are using is the instruction that the local Bishops’ Conference has the authority to ‘adapt’ the postures in keeping with the “culture and reasonable traditions of the people”.

So, if the priest has ordered her to stand, she should stand, both in obedience to the priest and with a view to uniformity of gestures reflecting the oneness of the people.

I don’t agree that standing at this point as a rule is a good thing. It smacks of disrespect and an obstinant refusal to humble oneself before God physically present on the Altar. We already have a decreased reverence for the Real Presence. It seems to me that this instruction will only exacerbate the problem. I don’t understand why the US Bishops are pushing for it so hard. Is it change just because they can?

What about if someone has a condition that prevents them from standing for long periods? Can they go ahead and kneel, or sit or will the priest berate them for it?

For us here in Australia though, the instructions clearly state that one is to kneel for the Consecration. It is our custom and I hope that when the Australian Bishops get around to implementing this that we don’t end up standing at this point as well.

acbc.catholic.org.au/documents/200707031933.pdf
  1. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren); before the Prayer over the Offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.
    They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the Homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.
    But they should kneel at the consecration, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.
    Nevertheless, it is up to the Conference of Bishops to adapt the gestures and postures described in the Order of Mass to the culture and reasonable traditions of the people.53 The Conference, however, must make sure that such adaptations correspond to the meaning and character of each part of the celebration. Where it is the practice for the people to remain kneeling after the Sanctus until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer and before Communion when the priest says: Ecce Agnus Dei (This is the Lamb of God), this practice is laudably retained.
    With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.
    In Australia apart from what is said above, the people are to sit from the Preparation of the Gifts until the completion of the riest’s invitation Orate fratres, and then stand from the beginning of the people’s response: “May the Lord accept…” to the end of he Sanctus. They then kneel from the completion of the Sanctus until after the Great Amen, and then stand from the beginning of the invitation to the Lord’s Prayer until the completion of the Agnus Dei, when they are to kneel again until the distribution of Holy Communion. During the sacred silence after the distribution of Holy Communion, they may either sit or kneel.
 
Whilst, the Priest’s approach may have been someone lacking in subtlety, at the end of the day, she should respect his position as a Priest and obey him and I think it wouldn’t be good for you to try and undermine his Authority, even if your intentions are good and pure. 🙂

JD
 
you said this woman was “special” did you mean she was mentally retarded? IF so, I think someone needs to talk to Padre. Thats ridiculous!
 
I find it a grace when someone offers special devotion to God. I’ve noted kneelings throughout mass on ocassion. I’ve noted deep prostrations. Ocassionally a woman will wear a mantilla or a monk will come robed. It is most admirable and draws me more deeply into a reverential posture. Act charitably toward your priest but I do pray that wisdom will urge him to thank the woman rather than correct her.

CDL
 
just because a man wears a collar doesn’t make him automatically a nice person. I’ve know many very nice Priests. And I’ve know ones who weren’t nice at all. They’re just Men.
They are flawed and some make that fact painfully obvious with words.
 
Johndigger said:
Whilst, the Priest’s approach may have been someone lacking in subtlety, at the end of the day, she should respect his position as a Priest and obey him and I think it wouldn’t be good for you to try and undermine his Authority, even if your intentions are good and pure. 🙂

JD
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Father, is that you?? 😃
 
Linda_Marie said:
I don’t agree that standing at this point as a rule is a good thing. It smacks of disrespect and an obstinant refusal to humble oneself before God physically present on the Altar.
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Historically, those who advocated kneeling during the Mass did so in order to deny the efficacy of Christ’s redeeming of humanity.

Now, you can certainly argue that no one for a thousand years has knelt for this reason, and that it is absurd to base our 21st century liturgical practices upon long-settled theological controversies, but that’s what we do in the Catholic Church. In the course of fighting that long-ago heresy, the church pulled the authority card and specifically banned kneeling. And as Catholics we hold that you can’t just ignore whatever rules don’t feel right to you personally.
 
cathyf said:
Historically, those who advocated kneeling during the Mass did so in order to deny the efficacy of Christ’s redeeming of humanity.

Now, you can certainly argue that no one for a thousand years has knelt for this reason, and that it is absurd to base our 21st century liturgical practices upon long-settled theological controversies, but that’s what we do in the Catholic Church. In the course of fighting that long-ago heresy, the church pulled the authority card and specifically banned kneeling. And as Catholics we hold that you can’t just ignore whatever rules don’t feel right to you personally.
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What? Kneeling denies the efficacy of Christ’s redeeming humanity? I have to admit that is the first time I have ever heard that. And also, the Church has not banned kneeling,
 
cathyf said:
Historically, those who advocated kneeling during the Mass did so in order to deny the efficacy of Christ’s redeeming of humanity.

Now, you can certainly argue that no one for a thousand years has knelt for this reason, and that it is absurd to base our 21st century liturgical practices upon long-settled theological controversies, but that’s what we do in the Catholic Church. In the course of fighting that long-ago heresy, the church pulled the authority card and specifically banned kneeling. And as Catholics we hold that you can’t just ignore whatever rules don’t feel right to you personally.
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Where does your “catechesis” come from. Certainly not from the Church.
 
Oh my gosh! I would never never approach Father, or any priest, w/out charity and humility. I am not brazen in any sense of the word. I have read somewhere, several times, that only 7 diocese have taken the line of standing @ the Agnus Dei and after Holy Communion. This woman is not retarded but maybe best described as “in her own world”. And she is at Mass everyday and evey occasion. Maybe 70 yrs old. Originally when this came from our archbishop it was delivered as a directive from the Vatican. Then after the dubium et al some of us returned to kneeling after receiving Holy Communion. This priest also was “hot” when a well informed Catholic parishioner who is also a local pro life leader explained the church’s position on euthanasia at a RCIA class. She was invited by the lay leader of this class and Father just happened to attend. He is not well informed. My intention is not to speak for this woman but to clarify the matter; this standing does not come from Rome.
 
Originally Posted by Linda Marie:
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I don’t agree that standing at this point as a rule is a good thing. It smacks of disrespect and an obstinant refusal to humble oneself before God physically present on the Altar. We already have a decreased reverence for the Real Presence. It seems to me that this instruction will only exacerbate the problem. I don’t understand why the US Bishops are pushing for it so hard. Is it change just because they can?
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Standing before the Eucharist, even at this moment, does not smack of disrespect. The Eastern Churches traditionally stand throughout the entire Divine Liturgy. However, given that in the Latin Church kneeling is identified with greater reverence, I agree that this is the more appropriate position for this point of the Mass.
 
MJE said:
The Monday AM mass @ our parish had only 6-7 people in attendance. Father attempted to “force” a woman to stand by repeatedly correcting her during the Mass.QUOTE]

Addressing her during Mass was absolutely and positively not the appropriate time for the celebrant to “take on” this woman, whether she was right or wrong.

His act of using public humiliation towards the woman for kneeling was punitive, not instructive.

Father needs to exercise some tactfulness. His approach is seriously lacking charity.
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