Our Protestant Liturgy

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Hey everyone. I’m a member at a Presbyterian church here in Louisville, KY, and we’re liturgical and working on being more catholic (ecumenical) in our liturgy and worship. It has been a long process, letting everyone get used to the changes and so forth, but I’d be interested in hearing some RC’s thoughts on our liturgy and areas for improvement?

You can find our current liturgy at the top of the page at: communitypca.org

The liturgy for 3/30 should be up.

Thanks!

Peace,
Gabe
 
Hey everyone. I’m a member at a Presbyterian church here in Louisville, KY, and we’re liturgical and working on being more catholic (ecumenical) in our liturgy and worship. It has been a long process, letting everyone get used to the changes and so forth, but I’d be interested in hearing some RC’s thoughts on our liturgy and areas for improvement?

You can find our current liturgy at the top of the page at: communitypca.org

The liturgy for 3/30 should be up.

Thanks!

Peace,
Gabe
Hi Gabe;

We’re not “RC” – we are Catholic Christians of many different traditions. Good luck on your journey.
 
Sorry, what is it that you are looking for?

As Presbyterians, obviously you may do whatever fits with your tradition.

You won’t have a Catholic liturgy until it is presided over by a Catholic priest, which is why I’m not sure what you are trying to do, here. (A Presbyterian minister is not really equivalent to a Catholic priest.)
 
I’m more concerned with the “form” of the Liturgy itself, or how the service is ordered.

Peace,
Gabe
 
Be careful…introducing Catholic liturgical elements into your service may draw you into the Catholic Church! 😃

Alex Jones was an “on-fire” Pentecostal minister in Detroit who was a completely dedicated shepherd of his flock. He greatly loved his people and they loved him. In seeking to give his flock the most genuine experience of the early Church prayer and worship services, he carefully read Scripture, the Fathers of the Church and writings of the early saints. The more he read, the more Alex came to the startling conclusion that the present day Catholic Church - and the Holy Mass - is the same exact "worship service " from the very early Church. Alex began to share his findings with his parish, and eventually Alex, and most of his parish, joined the Catholic Church. This is his incredible story of a black Pentecostal minister’s challenging and dramatic spiritual journey, and the flock that followed him. Today he preaches with his usual passion about Christ - as a Catholic deacon!

amazon.com/No-Price-too-High-Pentecostal/dp/0898709199
 
Hi, Gabe!

I suppose the answer to your question depends upon what Christian traditions you are trying to become “ecumenical” with.

IMO, Episcopalians and Lutherans would appreciate hearing the words of institution they are used to hearing in their own traditions, i.e “This is my body” and “This is my blood.”

Other Christian traditions may be perfectly happy with the communion service as it is.

As a Catholic, though, with all due respect, I need to have a Catholic priest instituting the Holy Eucharist. Without that, I cannot live.

Blessings,
Mrs. Mac
 
I’m more concerned with the “form” of the Liturgy itself, or how the service is ordered.

Peace,
Gabe
Are you trying to make it conform to the order of the Mass?

The Mass is structured like this:

The Order of the Mass

Gathering
Code:
* Greeting
* Penitential Rite
* -Confiteor
* -Kyrie
* Gloria
* Opening Prayer
Liturgy of the Word
Code:
* -Old Testament Reading
* -Psalm
* -Epistle Reading
* -Gospel Reading
* Homily
* Profession of Faith
* Prayers of the Faithful
Liturgy of the Eucharist
Code:
* Offeratory
* Eucharistic Prayer
* Consecration
* Communion Rite
* Distribution of Holy Communion
* Prayer After Communion
Dismissal
Code:
 * Final Prayer
 * Final Blessing
There are often hymns just before the Gathering, during the Offeratory, during the Distribution of Holy Communion, and after the final blessing, but they are not required.
 
It’s important that you understand a few things. There actually is no such thing as a “Roman Catholic” as that’s sorta a term that was created by Anglicans, who considered themselves “English Catholic.” Generally speaking, the proper term for what you refer to as “Roman Catholic” is really “Latin Catholic;” this is because the Catholic Church is made up of many traditions, of which Latin Catholic is only the one most people in the US are aware of. Others include Ukrainian Catholic, Maronite Catholic, Coptic Catholic, Ruthenian Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Greek Catholic, Syro Malankara Catholic, Chaldean Catholic, etc.

Now, the thing that you have to know about liturgy is that no matter how much it resembles a Catholic Mass or Divine Liturgy, that because Presbyterians do not have clergy with valid Holy Orders and Apostolic Succession, then it doesn’t really matter what a Presbyterian does for his services. The reason is because we as Catholic are forbidden to receive Communion at your churches because we do not believe that your communion is actually Christ’s Body and Blood. This is a MAJOR belief for us; we actually believe that at Mass, the bread and the wine, when consecrated by a validly ordained clergy, actually ceases to be bread and wine but becomes Christ’s actual Body and Blood, and that each Mass or Divine Liturgy is an unbloody re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice. In other words, we worship and adore the Eucharist because it is actually Christ.

Now, valid ordination is outlined in the Bible. How? A good example would be the ordination of St. Stephan in Acts, how the Apostles laid hands on his head. Acts continues to point out the centrality of laying on of hands, and also that it be performed by someone who can be traced to an Apostle. The bottom line is this: as Catholics, the only (name removed by moderator)ut that we can give you is that what is required for it to be “catholic” is validly ordained clergy with valid Apostolic Succession and a valid Consecration.
 
Sorry, what is it that you are looking for?

As Presbyterians, obviously you may do whatever fits with your tradition.

You won’t have a Catholic liturgy until it is presided over by a Catholic priest, which is why I’m not sure what you are trying to do, here. (A Presbyterian minister is not really equivalent to a Catholic priest.)
However, he will have a more Catholic-like service if he but follows the Geneva forms developed by Calvin. That consists of two parts, which roughly correspond respectively to the mass down to the Creed and to the celebration of the Eucharist. But Presbyterians rarely celebrate the Lord’s Supper. Interestingly, Calvin was for a weekly celebration, but his collagues were opposed to it. He could also source the Book of Common Prayer, since its author, Cranmer was theologically pretty close to Calvin in most respects.
 
He could also source the Book of Common Prayer, since its author, Cranmer was theologically pretty close to Calvin in most respects.
I’m guessing he/she might have - the Collect is Anglican! 🙂
 
He could also source the Book of Common Prayer, since its author, Cranmer was theologically pretty close to Calvin in most respects.
The Collect is Cramner’s, for the Sunday following Easter!
 
Are you trying to make it conform to the order of the Mass?
Thank you, that was very helpful. Our service is very similar to this in structure, with a few slight differences I’m sure.
 
However, he will have a more Catholic-like service if he but follows the Geneva forms developed by Calvin. That consists of two parts, which roughly correspond respectively to the mass down to the Creed and to the celebration of the Eucharist. But Presbyterians rarely celebrate the Lord’s Supper. Interestingly, Calvin was for a weekly celebration, but his collagues were opposed to it. He could also source the Book of Common Prayer, since its author, Cranmer was theologically pretty close to Calvin in most respects.
We get a lot of prayers, etc. from the BCP, but disagree in some ways with its form for the Eucharist. We have our Confession/Absolution near the beginning of the service, rather than right before Communion after the Sermon. That seems out of place to us.

We celebrate Communion weekly. What’s the point of going to Church without it? 😉
 
It’s important that you understand a few things. There actually is no such thing as a “Roman Catholic” as that’s sorta a term that was created by Anglicans, who considered themselves “English Catholic.” Generally speaking, the proper term for what you refer to as “Roman Catholic” is really “Latin Catholic;” this is because the Catholic Church is made up of many traditions, of which Latin Catholic is only the one most people in the US are aware of. Others include Ukrainian Catholic, Maronite Catholic, Coptic Catholic, Ruthenian Catholic, Melkite Catholic, Greek Catholic, Syro Malankara Catholic, Chaldean Catholic, etc.

Now, the thing that you have to know about liturgy is that no matter how much it resembles a Catholic Mass or Divine Liturgy, that because Presbyterians do not have clergy with valid Holy Orders and Apostolic Succession, then it doesn’t really matter what a Presbyterian does for his services. The reason is because we as Catholic are forbidden to receive Communion at your churches because we do not believe that your communion is actually Christ’s Body and Blood. This is a MAJOR belief for us; we actually believe that at Mass, the bread and the wine, when consecrated by a validly ordained clergy, actually ceases to be bread and wine but becomes Christ’s actual Body and Blood, and that each Mass or Divine Liturgy is an unbloody re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice. In other words, we worship and adore the Eucharist because it is actually Christ.

Now, valid ordination is outlined in the Bible. How? A good example would be the ordination of St. Stephan in Acts, how the Apostles laid hands on his head. Acts continues to point out the centrality of laying on of hands, and also that it be performed by someone who can be traced to an Apostle. The bottom line is this: as Catholics, the only (name removed by moderator)ut that we can give you is that what is required for it to be “catholic” is validly ordained clergy with valid Apostolic Succession and a valid Consecration.
This is all interesting, but not really relevant to this thread, is it? I’m talking about the form or order of the Liturgy.

Nevertheless, I beleive in the Real Presence (most of us Reformed people do, who aren’t influenced by Revivalism/Rationalism), just as Calvin and Luther did. 😉
 
Nevertheless, I beleive in the Real Presence (most of us Reformed people do, who aren’t influenced by Revivalism/Rationalism), just as Calvin and Luther did. 😉
I saw your webiste liturgy. The only comment I have is that it does seem to be liturgical in nature. It also doesn’t seem to have resemblence to the Catholic Liturgy called the Mass.
 
I saw your webiste liturgy. The only comment I have is that it does seem to be liturgical in nature. It also doesn’t seem to have resemblence to the Catholic Liturgy called the Mass.
Do you have any comments or helpful suggestions? I don’t represent the Church in any official capacity, but I hope to be ordained to transitional diaconate someday and eventually become a Minister, so this is all really helpful for me, thinking about my future. Thanks!
 
I think by having a confiteor/absolution, lectionary cycle incorporated into the liturgy of the word, recitation of the creed, and the words of institution, you are well on your way. Probably the best thing you can do is to check out both Angilican and Catholic liturgies for yourself. This should include both a visit to those liturgies and reading the rubrics for such liturgies.
 
I saw your webiste liturgy. The only comment I have is that it does seem to be liturgical in nature. It also doesn’t seem to have resemblence to the Catholic Liturgy called the Mass.
I don’t know if it is just the Catholic Churches I have been to but I have seen very little difference in the liturgy between them and the Presbyterian Church I attend.
 
Hey everyone. I’m a member at a Presbyterian church here in Louisville, KY, and we’re liturgical and working on being more catholic (ecumenical) in our liturgy and worship. It has been a long process, letting everyone get used to the changes and so forth, but I’d be interested in hearing some RC’s thoughts on our liturgy and areas for improvement?

You can find our current liturgy at the top of the page at: communitypca.org

The liturgy for 3/30 should be up.

Thanks!

Peace,
Gabe
I think it’s beautiful that you are trying to bring back a more liturgical (and more apostolic) Sunday worship.

It seems like the Book of Common Prayer would be a good place to start (since your tradition does come out of the Anglican tradition) but it might be helpful even to purchase a copy of the Catholic Sacramentary, which is one of 2 books used in all Catholic Masses (the other being the Lectionary with the biblical readings). There you will find not only those prayers that remain the same day after day, but also those prayers that change and those parts of the Mass that have different options.

God Bless you and please be assured of our prayers as you and your church continues on its journey.
 
I think it’s beautiful that you are trying to bring back a more liturgical (and more apostolic) Sunday worship.

It seems like the Book of Common Prayer would be a good place to start (since your tradition does come out of the Anglican tradition) but it might be helpful even to purchase a copy of the Catholic Sacramentary, which is one of 2 books used in all Catholic Masses (the other being the Lectionary with the biblical readings). There you will find not only those prayers that remain the same day after day, but also those prayers that change and those parts of the Mass that have different options.

God Bless you and please be assured of our prayers as you and your church continues on its journey.
Thanks a lot for your help. Is the book just called “Catholic Sacramentary”? What is the difference between that and the Roman Missal I’ve heard of?
 
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