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Lepanto
Guest
Why not just cut to the chase and become Catholic? Seriously.
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benedictgal
Guest
This semester, I’m taking a course on the Pentatuch and Judges. It is being offered by my diocese and my parochial vicar is teaching it.
I bring this up because we’ve just wrapped up our study of Leviticus. Leviticus centers around the cultic worship of Yahweh. This involved sacrifice, and, lots of it. It finally dawned on me that this is what Jesus meant when He told the surviving Apostles that he fulfilled the law of Moses and the prophets.
If you closely examine Leviticus (and, even the Passover rituals spelled out by God), you will find that everything has its fulfillment in Jesus. Jesus is both the Priest and the Victim. He is both the Sacrifice and the scapegoat that was sent off into the wilderness.
In fact, the liturgical elements are very similar to the Church’s, from the vestments, to the incense and to the offerings of unleavened bread and wine. Furthemore, the ordination of Aaron mirrors what happens when a priest and a bishop are ordained. There is the imposition of hands, the annointing with oil and the vesture. In fact, there was also a Sacrificial meal aspect to worship of Yahweh.
The Church is the New Israel. She is the fulfillment of Ancient Israel. When the second Temple was destroyed and the Jews did not have a place to offer sacrifice, that did not faze the Church. She continued with the Eucharistic Sacrifice because this was the commandment of her Divine Spouse, to “do this in memory” of Him.
The problem with Protestant ecclesial communities is that there is no concept of sacrifice. You may celebrate what you may sincerely believe to be the Lord’s Supper. However, you do not take into account the fact that what happened on Holy Thursday is intrinsically and intimately united with the Crucifixion on Good Friday and His Resurrection on Easter Sunday. Holy Thursday anticipates what happens on Good Friday and Easter Sunday.
While the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross happens once, for all, at every Mass, the veil between time and space, and heaven and earth, is lifted and we, ourselves, take part in that Sacrifice. We are just as present in the Upper Room, at Calvary and at the moment of the Resurrection as were Sts. Peter, John, Mary Magdalene and the Blessed Mother.
So, while you may try to make a valiant effort at imitating what the Church does, because your ministers are not validly ordained, it is only a shadow. I would encourage you to re-read Leviticus and then the accounts of the Last Supper. Pick up a copy of the Catechism and look at the chapters on the Eucharist.
Maybe your attempt at imitating may be the Lord’s way of calling out to you.
I bring this up because we’ve just wrapped up our study of Leviticus. Leviticus centers around the cultic worship of Yahweh. This involved sacrifice, and, lots of it. It finally dawned on me that this is what Jesus meant when He told the surviving Apostles that he fulfilled the law of Moses and the prophets.
If you closely examine Leviticus (and, even the Passover rituals spelled out by God), you will find that everything has its fulfillment in Jesus. Jesus is both the Priest and the Victim. He is both the Sacrifice and the scapegoat that was sent off into the wilderness.
In fact, the liturgical elements are very similar to the Church’s, from the vestments, to the incense and to the offerings of unleavened bread and wine. Furthemore, the ordination of Aaron mirrors what happens when a priest and a bishop are ordained. There is the imposition of hands, the annointing with oil and the vesture. In fact, there was also a Sacrificial meal aspect to worship of Yahweh.
The Church is the New Israel. She is the fulfillment of Ancient Israel. When the second Temple was destroyed and the Jews did not have a place to offer sacrifice, that did not faze the Church. She continued with the Eucharistic Sacrifice because this was the commandment of her Divine Spouse, to “do this in memory” of Him.
The problem with Protestant ecclesial communities is that there is no concept of sacrifice. You may celebrate what you may sincerely believe to be the Lord’s Supper. However, you do not take into account the fact that what happened on Holy Thursday is intrinsically and intimately united with the Crucifixion on Good Friday and His Resurrection on Easter Sunday. Holy Thursday anticipates what happens on Good Friday and Easter Sunday.
While the Sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross happens once, for all, at every Mass, the veil between time and space, and heaven and earth, is lifted and we, ourselves, take part in that Sacrifice. We are just as present in the Upper Room, at Calvary and at the moment of the Resurrection as were Sts. Peter, John, Mary Magdalene and the Blessed Mother.
So, while you may try to make a valiant effort at imitating what the Church does, because your ministers are not validly ordained, it is only a shadow. I would encourage you to re-read Leviticus and then the accounts of the Last Supper. Pick up a copy of the Catechism and look at the chapters on the Eucharist.
Maybe your attempt at imitating may be the Lord’s way of calling out to you.
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FranciscanMafia
Guest
Actually, we follow the Levitcal pattern of sacrifice in our worship, and we’re rather familiar with the old covenant sacrificial worship; that’s why we do what we do. But, thanks for the thought anyway.
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THurifer2
Guest
Sounds like a good attempt.
Does your church practice devotions to the ark of the New Covenant?
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FranciscanMafia
Guest
Uhhh, what?
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MusicMan
Guest
The Book of Common Prayer is very easily accessed online here: justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/ . You can find the BCPs in use for pretty much every Church in the Anglican Communion on that site. Some are more in line with the Ordinary Form Mass, others are more an English translation of the Extraordinary Form Mass, while most are an amalgamation.
You may also wish to investigate The Lima Liturgy, a service designed by the World Council of Churches to be an ecumenical worship service which includes Holy Communion. The Lima Liturgy can be found here: wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/faith/lima-e.html
Because the Episcopal and Lutheran liturgies draw a bit more from the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom than is perhaps realized (and is done in the OF Mass), you may also wish to look at the pew books for the Byzantine Catholic Church in the US. They can be downloaded in .pdf form here: metropolitancantorinstitute.org/Publications2.html
As was said above, you may also wish to purchase a Sacrementary, which is essentially The Roman Missal. You may also wish to look at the new missal used by the ELCA, Evangelical Lutheran Worship. I don’t believe either The Roman Missal or ELW are available online.
This should give you and your church a great deal of resources to create a more traditional catholic liturgy.
You may also wish to investigate The Lima Liturgy, a service designed by the World Council of Churches to be an ecumenical worship service which includes Holy Communion. The Lima Liturgy can be found here: wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/faith/lima-e.html
Because the Episcopal and Lutheran liturgies draw a bit more from the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom than is perhaps realized (and is done in the OF Mass), you may also wish to look at the pew books for the Byzantine Catholic Church in the US. They can be downloaded in .pdf form here: metropolitancantorinstitute.org/Publications2.html
As was said above, you may also wish to purchase a Sacrementary, which is essentially The Roman Missal. You may also wish to look at the new missal used by the ELCA, Evangelical Lutheran Worship. I don’t believe either The Roman Missal or ELW are available online.
This should give you and your church a great deal of resources to create a more traditional catholic liturgy.
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ac_claire
Guest
Hi Gabe,
By ark of the New Covenant, Thurifer was talking about the Blessed Mother. When you mentioned some of your personal roadblocks to converting to Catholicism, you mentioned Marian devotion. I just wanted to tell you that this is probably the most common “roadblock” to Protestants who are interested in the Church. The other things you mentioned (Papacy, some of the dogmas) are also very common. But usually the trepidition is due to a faulty understanding of what the Church actually teaches on these subjects. There is an enormous amount of mis-information out there.
Are you familiar with Scott Hahn? If not, he was a Presbyterian minister before coming home to the Church. You might be interested in some of his writings about his conversion, as he addresses all of the roadblocks you mentioned, and more. (Click here for starters.)
As for your liturgy. Well, I like how you really utilize scripture. So many protestant “bible” services actually contain very little bible. So, thumbs up on that!
The first thing that jumps out at me as far as criticism is under “The Lord Cleanses Us”…You have the confession prayer, but it’s sort of general…“we are sinful in nature,” etc. Then it’s followed by an equally general absolution. I suppose this is a good way of addressing the nature or fact of man’s sinfullness and God’s mercy. But at what point do you actually confess your sins? (does this nag at you a little…? I think it would bother me.)
Looking through the rest of the liturgy…Seems like there’s not a whole lot you could change to make it “more Catholic” without actually, you know…making it Catholic.
I hope this was at least somewhat helpful. May God bless your efforts!
J
jblake
Guest
Lepanto;:
Just like the first step to traveling to the capital of Bechuanaland, was to cross the border into South Africa, so the first step into a congregation moving into the fold of the Catholic Church, is to learn what the liturgy is, and what it represents.
[Until 1964, the capital of Bechuanaland was Mafeking, in the Union of South Africa. It was only with independence, and renaming the country to Botswana, that Gaborone became the capital. ]
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jonathon
Think of this is a step.
Just like the first step to traveling to the capital of Bechuanaland, was to cross the border into South Africa, so the first step into a congregation moving into the fold of the Catholic Church, is to learn what the liturgy is, and what it represents.
[Until 1964, the capital of Bechuanaland was Mafeking, in the Union of South Africa. It was only with independence, and renaming the country to Botswana, that Gaborone became the capital. ]
xan
jonathon
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benedictgal
Guest
But, how could you follow the Leviticus pattern? Are you actually sacrificing a lamb? I would think not. Furthermore, because you don’t have a validly ordained ministerial prieesthood, that would not work at all.Actually, we follow the Levitcal pattern of sacrifice in our worship, and we’re rather familiar with the old covenant sacrificial worship; that’s why we do what we do. But, thanks for the thought anyway.
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MusicMan
Guest
To be fair, it is we who believe that the Protestants lack a validly ordained priesthood. What they believe is what they believe.
And I know that the standard response to such statement is that “Just because they believe it doesn’t make it so.” Please keep in mind that when questioned, the Orthodox have been known to say the same thing about us.
And I know that the standard response to such statement is that “Just because they believe it doesn’t make it so.” Please keep in mind that when questioned, the Orthodox have been known to say the same thing about us.
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agapewolf
Guest
I guess I have hesitations about this whole thing. Why make it “look” more Catholic, when it isn’t? This seems to be working from the outside, from the appearances, rather than the inner belief system.
Our Liturgy, our Mass, is not just mindless ritual. It is a manifestation of who we are, what we believe (one body in Christ- through the Eucharist), and Worship of God. copying it, without having the underlying beliefs, doesn’t sit well with me. And to the OP, I am in no way suggestiong that you are this way, but we should all keep in mind the satanists who also “copy” our Masses but desecrate the Eucharist. Again, I am not suggesting the OP is doing this, but copying the Catholic liturgy is not all the time good.
Of course, God can use anything to plant seeds of faith, so if it be by an imitation liturgy, then fine. I know that this is how Scott Hahn found clarity in the Catholic faith, was by the rituals of breaking bread.
Our Liturgy, our Mass, is not just mindless ritual. It is a manifestation of who we are, what we believe (one body in Christ- through the Eucharist), and Worship of God. copying it, without having the underlying beliefs, doesn’t sit well with me. And to the OP, I am in no way suggestiong that you are this way, but we should all keep in mind the satanists who also “copy” our Masses but desecrate the Eucharist. Again, I am not suggesting the OP is doing this, but copying the Catholic liturgy is not all the time good.
Of course, God can use anything to plant seeds of faith, so if it be by an imitation liturgy, then fine. I know that this is how Scott Hahn found clarity in the Catholic faith, was by the rituals of breaking bread.
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benedictgal
Guest
True, but, I was merely restating what the Church has taught, which is rather eloquelty expressed in the document Dominus Iesus, put forth by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, headed, at the time, by the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger.
I am still rather curious as to how the OP’s ecclesial community follows the Leviticus rituals.
In my previous post, I noted that there is a strong resemblance of many of our Church’s liturgical practice to what Ancient Israel followed (when the Temple was still up and running). However, while the perfect Sacrifice of Jesus fulfilled what the animal sacrifices were foreshadowing, Jesus did not eliminate the notion of sacrifice from worship. We don’t sacrifice lambs; we participate in the sacrifice of the True Lamb of God, Jesus Christ. We don’t re-create the Sacrifice; the veil between time and space is lifted and we are there in the Upper Room, at Calvary and at the tomb. When He said, “Do this in memory of me”, this was supposed to be in perpetuity until He returns in glory. The Church, as the Bride of Christ, takes her Divine Spouse’s words literally and celebrates the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass every day throughout the world.
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Refugium
Guest
Umm, no you don’t–and neither did Luther and Calvin. You take the phrase “Real Presence” and apply a different meaning to it, divorcing it from its original and actual meaning–that the Body, Blood, Soul, & Divinity of Jesus Christ are present under the appearances of bread and wine, that only the “accidents”–what is perceivable to the senses–of bread and wine remain, while the substance–that which it actually is–is Christ. If you believe in the Real Presence, do you worship the elements of Communion, the “bread” and “wine”? If it is Jesus Christ, and not bread and wine, it deserves the highest form of worship, no?This is all interesting, but not really relevant to this thread, is it? I’m talking about the form or order of the Liturgy.
Nevertheless, I beleive in the Real Presence (most of us Reformed people do, who aren’t influenced by Revivalism/Rationalism), just as Calvin and Luther did.
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Refugium
Guest
That’s because the Novus Ordo liturgy, which was created in 1970 following the Second Vatican Council, was written with the specific intention of making it as close to the Protestant liturgies as possible. That’s why the Novus Ordo Mass introduces elements which the Protestant reformers originally introduced and which were condemned by Popes. These include such things as vernacular liturgy, replacing an altar of sacrifice with a table for a meal, communion in the hand, laypeople distributing communion, liturgy celebrated facing the people, communion under both kinds, and many more. In fact, six Protestant ministers were present at the Second Vatican Council to help the fathers of the council to create a more Protestant-friendly Catholic Mass. Cardinal Ottiavani at the time said, “the Novus Ordo represents, both as a whole and in its details, a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as it was formulated in Session XXII of the Council of Trent. The ‘canons’ of the rite definitively fixed at that time provided an insurmountable barrier to any; heresy directed against the integrity of the Mystery.”
That’s why I attend a Mass that is actually Catholic in all respects–the Traditional Latin Mass.
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Pong
Guest
Stop trying to de-rail. This thread is not about the TLM.
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AJV
Guest
Would it surprise you to find out that most Protestant denominations changed their liturgies AFTER the the NO rather than before? Actually, a bit like reasons of the OP - to come closer to a liturgical worship.
For the OP, to make a celebration more liturgical in appearance and form, first and foremost, you must have a clear distinction between it and other forms of prayer, and of course, worldly distractions. It would be a good idea to use vestments rather than just civvies, although a choir robe with a stole (I think Presbyterians use them) should suffice.
Your music should not be of the contemporary “praise and worship” style, but rather the old hymns many Protestant composers have come up with (and many of which have been happily adopted by the Catholic Church, and I’m not talking OCP stuff).
Then base it on the basic forms that have come through the ages. One of the oldest descriptions is St. Justin Martyr’s. It clearly shows a celebration of the Word, and then the celebration of the Eucharist and Communion. Study the present form of the Roman Mass, since it has a simplified structure that can be easier to adopt. Also look at the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in use among the Eastern Christians. It’s a bit more elaborate but you may be able to pick a few elements, like the antiphons. Basically, a structure will require an opening greeting, a confession/penitential rite, a Collect (i.e. opening prayer), readings, psalms with antiphons, a Gospel reading, sermon, preface (the “Lift up your hearts/ we lift them up to the Lord” is common to practically all liturgical traditions), a consecratory prayer, the Lord’s Prayer, Communion, and dismissal.
Then of course, there is no liturgy without a calendar. Based on that, you can come up with collects one for each Sunday, and recite the Glory to God in the Highest after the penitential/confession portion. For starters, you can try following the Roman Calendar’s seasonal propers, and leave the sanctoral propers for later (these deal with celebrations of saints, which may or may not fit in with your theology).
I’d say you have your work cut out for you.
However, I’d echo a previous poster’s warning. You might fall in love with it and find yourself drawn to the Catholic Church.
Your music should not be of the contemporary “praise and worship” style, but rather the old hymns many Protestant composers have come up with (and many of which have been happily adopted by the Catholic Church, and I’m not talking OCP stuff).
Then base it on the basic forms that have come through the ages. One of the oldest descriptions is St. Justin Martyr’s. It clearly shows a celebration of the Word, and then the celebration of the Eucharist and Communion. Study the present form of the Roman Mass, since it has a simplified structure that can be easier to adopt. Also look at the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom in use among the Eastern Christians. It’s a bit more elaborate but you may be able to pick a few elements, like the antiphons. Basically, a structure will require an opening greeting, a confession/penitential rite, a Collect (i.e. opening prayer), readings, psalms with antiphons, a Gospel reading, sermon, preface (the “Lift up your hearts/ we lift them up to the Lord” is common to practically all liturgical traditions), a consecratory prayer, the Lord’s Prayer, Communion, and dismissal.
Then of course, there is no liturgy without a calendar. Based on that, you can come up with collects one for each Sunday, and recite the Glory to God in the Highest after the penitential/confession portion. For starters, you can try following the Roman Calendar’s seasonal propers, and leave the sanctoral propers for later (these deal with celebrations of saints, which may or may not fit in with your theology).
I’d say you have your work cut out for you.
However, I’d echo a previous poster’s warning. You might fall in love with it and find yourself drawn to the Catholic Church.
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MusicMan
Guest
Indeed. A cursory comparison between The Book of Common Prayer of 1928 and 1979 indicate rather substantially different services. Guess which one is closer to the Ordinary Form Mass? I’ll give you one hint. It’s not the BCP of 1928.
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Refugium
Guest
No, it doesn’t suprise at all actually! Since we’ve removed anything from the Mass that might be offensive to Protestant ears, it is only natural that they conform their own liturgies more to our banal Novus Ordo liturgy. And I am aware that after the disastrous Vatican II changes, our liturgy was even looser and more liberal than the traditional Episcopalian and Lutheran liturgies–they had to revise their prayerbooks to catch up.
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AJV
Guest
To nitpick…we haven’t…but perhaps thats a good topic for another thread.
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