Our we still having 2.5 children in the U.S.?

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:confused:It seems to me if we are having 2.5 children in the US. currently and the drop in marriages and the hold out of marriage do to careers and divorces and so on. And people not believing in marriage and living together, it seems to me that we may be in some trouble in the years to come. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, Holy Family pray for us. What if anything can we do to stop this unholy trend? We must protect marriage and children!
 
Thanks for the graph. What is startling is that 40 percent of the women having babies in 2011 are unwed mothers
Yes. Out of wedlock births help to ensure the continuation of poverty and the decline of family. And yet without those births, our total fertility rate would be even lower, ensuring a more quickly declining population. The trends are not good.

The contraceptive mentality started us down this road. (See the book “Adam and Eve After the Pill.”)
 
Yes. Out of wedlock births help to ensure the continuation of poverty and the decline of family. And yet without those births, our total fertility rate would be even lower, ensuring a more quickly declining population. The trends are not good.

The contraceptive mentality started us down this road. (See the book “Adam and Eve After the Pill.”)
Orthodox Catholics are perhaps best suited to benefit from this situation. If they really focused on the family and had 3-6 kids and raised them well, the opportunity to be a significant global influence is there.

Also, there’s NO WAY the USA TFR is anywhere 2.5. :dts:
 
I know this is a controversial subject and I think it is related to the Culture of Death stuff. I heard some folks talk about this on the radio once on the NPR and this gal was saying that in Communist Countries like China, by law they are only allowed to have one child, so most only have one child. This is the program of the government to reduce the population so there are fewer mouths to feed and after a few generations of forced sterilizations, contraceptions and abortions the population will be down to a manageable size. But after explaining all that and telling the listeners how they accepted how totally horrible that was, she pulled out the statistics that we have in the western world and they were grim. Most families choose to contracept and in doing so only replace them selves this only one more child per captia then the Communists and we volunteer for it. Most folks if you ask them they’ll gladly tell you they are DONE having childen after the two they have to replace themselves. It is a zero-population growth sum and it too has an agenda of more wealth for the few who survive a few generations of this kind of culling. She went on with her talk and after comparing the two systems made a comment about why we consider the forced stuff in China so bad when we aren’t really much better. And closed her talk by asking the question, “Why did we volunteer for a program that is clearly population control brought about by government intervention?” It left an impression on me and I actually thought this gal was taking a big risk in comparing some aspects of our government to the governments in Communist countries. I was on my way into the Church at the time, but I never forgot what she said. I wondered how the wool could be pulled over so many eyes for so long. Now, when I see those whose numbers don’t match the “nuclear model of a family” that she was describing, I sometimes say spontaneously, “Thank you for saying ‘Yes’ to life,” and smile.

Glenda

P.S. Does anyone know how the wool got pulled over so many sets of eyes anyway? Why do so many volunteer for a zero-sum population growth figure and contracept away any more children than the two?
 
Glenda

P.S. Does anyone know how the wool got pulled over so many sets of eyes anyway? Why do so many volunteer for a zero-sum population growth figure and contracept away any more children than the two?
I think here in the US. we are being brought over this Communist lead sterilization ideas indirectly and mostly through the media and it’s shows. Most of these social ideas have trickled through from Europe where mass exterminations and genocide occurred. There mindset has been welcomed by many in the social media and by our intellects. Let’s keep up in prayers and support of children.
 
Thanks for the graph. What is startling is that 40 percent of the women having babies in 2011 are unwed mothers
If you consider how many parents are married from a child’s birth to the completion of the child’s education, it is even worse. Single mothers who marry after the birth of their children and divorce later leave themselves and their children even worse off emotionally and financially than single mothers who refrain from marriage.

IOW, it is not enough to promote marriage. What is necessary is to promote good and lasting marriages within which spouses become true and lifelong partners. An attempt at marriage that is doomed to fail is far worse for a single parent’s family than if the parent were to remain chaste and find other means of adult support for his or her family, such as the support of family and friends.
 
Bare long term replacement rate is 2.1 children per woman. The USA dropped below that level a few years ago. We haven’t been at 2.5 in decades.

Worse than that, not ONE nation on earth in which contraception is cheap, widely available and socially respectable has an above replacement total fertility rate. (Basically that’s all first world countries). Look it up at CIA world factbook if you like.

The only reason global population is still rising is because so many third world countries are still undergoing the demographic transition that happens naturally with urbanization.

In short, there are four demographic categories:
  1. Preindustrial rural populations: high fertility rates, high mortality rates, low population growth rates.
  2. Urbanizing societies introduced to medicine, scientific agriculture and sanitation: high fertility, dramatically lower mortality, high population growth rates.
  3. Mature urban societies without contraception: low fertility, low mortality, low to zero population growth rates. (Historical evidence aplenty between late 1800’s and 1930’s.)
  4. Contraceptive urban societies: ultra low fertility, low mortality, native population decline at about 200 year half life on average.
Most third world countries in Asia and South America are rapidly completing stage 2 and moving quickly past stage 3 and into stage 4. Only parts of Africa and muslim portions of Asia are persistently in stage 2, largely due to warfare inhibiting development. Assuming reliable energy supplies continue to be worked out, Earth is on track to start actual population declines by the end of the century. If an energy catastrophic shortage or economic collapse occurs, it will come much sooner via warfare (IMO).

This is all a big picture summary that doesn’t address every specific instance and minor exception. It’s an overview, so it is a bit simplified.
 
:confused:It seems to me if we are having 2.5 children in the US. currently and the drop in marriages and the hold out of marriage do to careers and divorces and so on. And people not believing in marriage and living together, it seems to me that we may be in some trouble in the years to come. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, Holy Family pray for us. What if anything can we do to stop this unholy trend? We must protect marriage and children!
Fertility Levels and Trends as Assessed in the 2012 Revision of World Population Prospects, prepared by the Population Division of the Department of Economic and Social Affairs of the United Nations Secretariat, presents a concise description of current fertility levels around the world, historical trends in the level and timing of fertility and projections of fertility to 2100, including the relative impact of fertility on population growth. The key findings of this report are:1. Total fertility worldwide is currently about 2.5 children per woman but this masks considerable diversity, with 12 countries or areas with total fertility above six children per women while 75 have below-replacement level fertility. The least developed countries have the highest total fertility at above 4.5 children per woman.

2. Fertility has declined worldwide to unprecedented levels
, from 5.0 children per woman in 1950-1955 to 2.5 children per woman in 2005-2010. The pace of change was particularly rapid from 1970-1975 to 1990-1995 when total fertility fell from 4.4 to 3.0 children per woman.

3. Fertility declines were significant in all regions with substantial and sustained fertility declines in Asia and Latin America and the Caribbean in particular, where total fertility declined from 5.8 and 5.9 children per woman, respectively, in 1950-1955 to about 2.3 children per woman in 2005-2010. The decline in fertility in Africa has been less rapid, declining from 6.6 children per woman in 1950-1955 to 4.9 children per woman in 2005-2010.

4. Nearly half of the world’s population currently lives in countries or areas with below-replacement level fertility, with some countries reaching historically unprecedented low fertility levels below a total fertility of 1.3 children per woman. Conversely, nearly thirteen per cent of the world’s population currently lives in countries or areas with total fertility four or more children per woman.

**5. Childbearing is being increasingly postponed to older ages and the adolescent birth rate has declined in all regions. **Postponement of childbearing has become a feature of Europe, Northern America and parts of Asia with an increasing mean age of childbearing. In Africa and Latin America and the Caribbean, there has been little change in the mean age of childbearing and the adolescent birth rate has also remained high in both these regions.

**6. The total fertility of the world is projected to decrease to 2.2 children per woman by 2045-2050 and further decrease to 2.0 children per woman by 2095-2100 under the medium variant fertility projection. Europe is the only region where fertility is projected to increase (to 1.8 children per woman in 2045-2050) whereas all the other regions are projected to see further declines in fertility. Total fertility in Africa is projected to decline to 3.1 children per woman by 2045-2050 while all other regions are projected to have below-replacement total fertility by that time.
**
7. Fertility is a major contributor to population growth in many countries with projected fast population growth.
In other countries, with projected total fertility below replacement, the fertility component will have a negative impact on population size over the period 2010-2100. In absolute terms, the impact of the fertility component by 2100 varies from an additional 647 million people in Nigeria to a decline of 425 million people in China.
 
Assuming abc is reasonably available in most parts of the USA then why are fertility rates higher in the more rural less dense areas vs the cities? I think it is partially due to population density somehow demotivating people from wanting more than 2 children. Plus the plethora of pursuits beyond raising children.

Look at Japan. Most of us can agree they will have a demographic crisis within a few decades if trends continue. But Japan also has some of the highest population densities I the 1st world. Similarly, those of us living in our near major cities often get the sense that there are so many people while I’m traffic, or just walking the street, or the other manifestations of “so many people”.

Add to that the fact that within our lifetimes we see other direct effects of population growth on the land around us. In just the last 2 decades I’ve seen many empty fields and “wild” unused land get developed, thereby destroying natural habitats, displacing critters, and even leading to the culling of cougars and coyotes when they wonder into their former territory and happen upon someone’s dog.

Since I have seen in my area, as I’m sure many of you have that growing towns wipe out “wild” open areas, it seems natural that striving to leave a better world of our future children includes not creating so many that they must choose between higher and higher density or destroying open areas for housing and such.
 
Assuming abc is reasonably available in most parts of the USA then why are fertility rates higher in the more rural less dense areas vs the cities? I think it is partially due to population density somehow demotivating people from wanting more than 2 children. Plus the plethora of pursuits beyond raising children.

Look at Japan. Most of us can agree they will have a demographic crisis within a few decades if trends continue. But Japan also has some of the highest population densities I the 1st world. Similarly, those of us living in our near major cities often get the sense that there are so many people while I’m traffic, or just walking the street, or the other manifestations of “so many people”.

Add to that the fact that within our lifetimes we see other direct effects of population growth on the land around us. In just the last 2 decades I’ve seen many empty fields and “wild” unused land get developed, thereby destroying natural habitats, displacing critters, and even leading to the culling of cougars and coyotes when they wonder into their former territory and happen upon someone’s dog.

Since I have seen in my area, as I’m sure many of you have that growing towns wipe out “wild” open areas, it seems natural that striving to leave a better world of our future children includes not creating so many that they must choose between higher and higher density or destroying open areas for housing and such.
There’s plenty of open areas. Fly over the U.S. Fly over Kansas! It’s all open areas. The fact is that people tend to congregate in the higher population density cities–New York, Los Angeles, Chicago. Not many people are migrating to Colby, Kansas, despite all the open areas.
 
There’s plenty of open areas. Fly over the U.S. Fly over Kansas! It’s all open areas. The fact is that people tend to congregate in the higher population density cities–New York, Los Angeles, Chicago. Not many people are migrating to Colby, Kansas, despite all the open areas.
I agree that there are plenty of open areas. I think our disagreement is that I don’t see open areas as blank pieces of land in need or even rightfully available for development. These open areas are inhabited by various plants and animals. Spreading to those areas means displacing or destroying the native life.

And while they may congregate in high density, it doesn’t negate the fact that it correlates to lower fertility. My explanation is my opinion, not fact but there must be a reason to this correlation.
 
Europe is the only region where fertility is projected to increase (to 1.8 children per woman in 2045-2050) whereas all the other regions are projected to see further declines in fertility.
When you actually dig into the UN population division website and read the individual papers discussing methodology and assumptions you find that this assumption of a rebound in European fertility is almost pure speculation. It amounts to little more than “Well surely it can’t stay that low forever.” So far, UN demographers appear unwilling to seriously study the profound differences that cheap and socially respectable contraception have on a culture in the long term. The historical record of mature urban societies from the late 1800’s to the 1930’s (when contraceptives starting becoming respectable in industrialized countries) shows that second and third generation urbanites ALREADY had hit about 2.1 TFR as a norm well before modern contraception came along. Urban life inherently economically punishes larger families and pushes people towards a later start to marriage than rural life. In short, human populations tend to be designed towards stable population levels except during massive cultural disruptions (such as the industrial revolution)l. What widespread contraception does is to disrupt the natural self-regulating mechanisms and cause long term sub-replacement fertility.

Watch and see. Those 1.3 TFR Euro countries are NOT going to go back to replacement fertility of 2.1 and I doubt they’ll even see 1.8 again as long as the current cultural paradigm persists. Instead the west will keep importing the contraceptive culture to the developing world and we’ll see their TFRs drop faster than predicted as well. Just my prediction.
 
Assuming abc is reasonably available in most parts of the USA then why are fertility rates higher in the more rural less dense areas vs the cities? I think it is partially due to population density somehow demotivating people from wanting more than 2 children. Plus the plethora of pursuits beyond raising children.

Add to that the fact that within our lifetimes we see other direct effects of population growth on the land around us. In just the last 2 decades I’ve seen many empty fields and “wild” unused land get developed, thereby destroying natural habitats, displacing critters, and even leading to the culling of cougars and coyotes when they wonder into their former territory and happen upon someone’s dog.
As noted above, urban economics naturally tend towards smaller families. Good earnings require more education, leading to later marriage ages which significantly reduces family sizes all by itself. (Few people realize how much difficulty a 30 year old woman is likely to have trying to conceive her first child). Add in the fact that in agricultural life, a 10 year old child is already a productive family worker, while in urban life a child is economically a drain on family finances until he’s 18-22 years old (these days often longer!). The historical record shows that modern contraception isn’t necessary to hold stable native urban populations in the long run. Urban populations grow from people moving there from rural (stage 2) high growth areas, not native population growth.

What the world really needs to stabilize populations long term is to do a better job helping developing nations to achieve stable and just government and economic development. Instead, they spend those resources promoting contraceptives in the third world and managing the perpetual imbalance of exploding populations in that third world and what would otherwise be shrinking populations in the first world.
 
When you actually dig into the UN population division website and read the individual papers discussing methodology and assumptions you find that this assumption of a rebound in European fertility is almost pure speculation. It amounts to little more than “Well surely it can’t stay that low forever.” So far, UN demographers appear unwilling to seriously study the profound differences that cheap and socially respectable contraception have on a culture in the long term. The historical record of mature urban societies from the late 1800’s to the 1930’s (when contraceptives starting becoming respectable in industrialized countries) shows that second and third generation urbanites ALREADY had hit about 2.1 TFR as a norm well before modern contraception came along. Urban life inherently economically punishes larger families and pushes people towards a later start to marriage than rural life. In short, human populations tend to be designed towards stable population levels except during massive cultural disruptions (such as the industrial revolution)l. What widespread contraception does is to disrupt the natural self-regulating mechanisms and cause long term sub-replacement fertility.

Watch and see. Those 1.3 TFR Euro countries are NOT going to go back to replacement fertility of 2.1 and I doubt they’ll even see 1.8 again as long as the current cultural paradigm persists. Instead the west will keep importing the contraceptive culture to the developing world and we’ll see their TFRs drop faster than predicted as well. Just my prediction.
Those low fertility areas are projected to show very little change, and the 2012 projections (data driven) are lower than those using the previous model:
“The new AR1 hierarchical model also projects only small differences in total fertility by 2095-2100 between the 2010 and 2012 Revisions for the 50 other countries or areas experiencing low fertility in 2005-2010 (and no sign of increase in at least two consecutive periods). In all instances, the 2012 projections compared to the 2010 Revision are slightly lower (on average by about 0.1 child) as seen in figure V.9 with an average median fertility level of 1.85 (80% projection interval 1.5-2.1).”
 
Hello ManualMan
Bare long term replacement rate is 2.1 children per woman. The USA dropped below that level a few years ago. We haven’t been at 2.5 in decades.

Worse than that, not ONE nation on earth in which contraception is cheap, widely available and socially respectable has an above replacement total fertility rate. (Basically that’s all first world countries). Look it up at CIA world factbook if you like.

The only reason global population is still rising is because so many third world countries are still undergoing the demographic transition that happens naturally with urbanization.

In short, there are four demographic categories:
  1. Preindustrial rural populations: high fertility rates, high mortality rates, low population growth rates.
  2. Urbanizing societies introduced to medicine, scientific agriculture and sanitation: high fertility, dramatically lower mortality, high population growth rates.
  3. Mature urban societies without contraception: low fertility, low mortality, low to zero population growth rates. (Historical evidence aplenty between late 1800’s and 1930’s.)
  4. Contraceptive urban societies: ultra low fertility, low mortality, native population decline at about 200 year half life on average.
Most third world countries in Asia and South America are rapidly completing stage 2 and moving quickly past stage 3 and into stage 4. Only parts of Africa and muslim portions of Asia are persistently in stage 2, largely due to warfare inhibiting development. Assuming reliable energy supplies continue to be worked out, Earth is on track to start actual population declines by the end of the century. If an energy catastrophic shortage or economic collapse occurs, it will come much sooner via warfare (IMO).

This is all a big picture summary that doesn’t address every specific instance and minor exception. It’s an overview, so it is a bit simplified.
Thanks for the numbers. It looks even worse than this mild account you’ve provided. Zero-population growth rates are next on a schedule of reductionary population growth tables. China is there, we’re one up from that. Shucks, Chuckie is that my imagination or did we fall for a lie or two in this great land of ours?

Glenda

P.S. Declines in population historically were viewed as catastrophies. Nations always prided themselves on their fertility and ability to grow and spread their particular culture by sheer numbers. Why is a reduction in population seen by many as a good thing?
 
Hello Manual Man.
As noted above, urban economics naturally tend towards smaller families. Good earnings require more education, leading to later marriage ages which significantly reduces family sizes all by itself. (Few people realize how much difficulty a 30 year old woman is likely to have trying to conceive her first child). Add in the fact that in agricultural life, a 10 year old child is already a productive family worker, while in urban life a child is economically a drain on family finances until he’s 18-22 years old (these days often longer!). The historical record shows that modern contraception isn’t necessary to hold stable native urban populations in the long run. Urban populations grow from people moving there from rural (stage 2) high growth areas, not native population growth.

What the world really needs to stabilize populations long term is to do a better job helping developing nations to achieve stable and just government and economic development. Instead, they spend those resources promoting contraceptives in the third world and managing the perpetual imbalance of exploding populations in that third world and what would otherwise be shrinking populations in the first world.
Your second paragraph isn’t exactly what I think the “world” needs. It needs to throw away all forms of contraception and sterilization and abortion. It needs to re-evaluate why government funded population control measures are tolerated in the first place. Biblically the only comparison to current population controlling measures by a government was the orders of Pharoah in Egypt to regulate the Jewish population by ordering the murder of the males born of the Jews by the mid-wives in that land. It happened. It is historical. It WAS governmental population control and it was a place of slavery and death. It was God’s right hand raised against that nation that freed the Israelites from that land of death through Moses His servant. It is a very good analogy and there is a seriously needed lesson in it for those who volunteer for governmentally regulated birth rates via legal access to contraception, sterilization and abortion. God said be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. It pleases God when men and women marry and allow God’s procreative actions to flow through their married life. Children are a blessing not a curse and those who reject the gift of fertility are cursing God for the gift of life.

Glenda
 
Glenda,

What I find both curious and delightful is that the Malthusians are actually proven wrong when you look at the data. They assert that population will grow geometrically indefinitely unless extraordinary steps are taken to reduce population growth rates.

Too many catholics in the past have taken them at their word that explosive and indefinitely population growth is guaranteed without contraception and proceeded to feebly argue that Earth has plenty of resources to care for perpetual growth (silly examples of how dense we’d be if we all lived in Texas, etc). Missed in that conversation is the findings of professional demography that mature urban societies do NOT grow explosively and indefinitely without contraceptive intervention. On the contrary, the data appears to show that humans have a sort of basic innate self regulation that can be disrupted by cultural upheaval, but that eventually re-establishes itself. Thus, both stage 1 and stage 3 above have little population growth. Stage 2 is rapid growth, but is only a transitory stage.

So my assertion against the Malthusians is that human nature itself will rebalance populations given time and stability; no long term population crisis really exists. By missing that fact their “contraceptive solution” instead sabotages human nature and creates an artificial circumstance in which perpetual SUBreplacement fertility rates are likely. Rather a poor solution to the problem of short term high population growth rates, I’d say.
 
Those low fertility areas are projected to show very little change, and the 2012 projections (data driven) are lower than those using the previous model:
You’re right that the 2012 update did correct the absurd assumption of return to 2.1 in the 2010 projection. That’s the problem having amateur hobbies, it’s hard to keep up to date.

IIRC, they were still projecting increases from today’s numbers in spite of the fact that today’s numbers are somewhat propped up by immigration from high TFR countries. Once TFR drops in those countries, the even lower native TFR of the Euro nations will (I suspect) be revealed.

You sound recently versed, do you remember the 2012 median and low range long term convergence point assumed for countries currently in the ‘very low’ TFR categories? Is your quote saying that 1.85 is for that category alone? Because I’m not sure I buy most of those places seeing that much increase AFTER the scenario arises where many fertile age citizens are paying for retirement benefits for greater numbers of elderly. The generation burdened with massive social benefit cost increases is suddenly going to have more kids than mom or grandma did? Right…
 
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