Out of Control U.S. Government

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I’d be highly skeptical of such a study, FWIW. That’s just my own opinion, though. 🙂 Economists constantly publish contradictory studies using quite nebulous terms such as that.

Incidentally, what is “corporate welfare?” I hear that perjorative thrown around loosely as if it were an EBT card for companies. Usually, the folks who use it mean “tax breaks” which are available to basically anybody and everybody willing to partake in activities defined in the tax code. Take a look at General Electric’s very interesting taxes over the past few years. We throw “Big Oil” under the bus, but look at the sheer amount they pay in taxes. They get some amount of tax write-off as an innovation incentive and it isn’t a check from us to them, they simply pay the government less of the money that they earned (and the government did not earn, but merely confiscated). That’s “welfare” to some. Crazy.

Curiously, when most of these folks write off mortgage payments, children, and charity, they don’t consider that “welfare” on the individual level.
If you look at the ratio of income to the Federal Government with respect to that received from personal income taxes to corporate taxes, there has been a steady trend to reduce the corporate tax burden since the 1980’s.

The most obvious example of “corporate welfare” recently was TARP. Explaining it is a bit long winded for this forum, but I would recommend the excellent analysis by Kahn as a starting point: khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/core-finance/money-and-banking/geithner-plan/v/geithner-plan-i Kahn is a former (and brilliant) hedge fund manager who made his fortune, and has turned to education reform as a new vocation. He understands banking and finance very well.

Corporate Welfare sometimes takes the form of tax incentives, but I was referring to the outright donation of about a trillion dollars to companies which are “too big to fail”. In most cases, the companies (such as CitiCorp and Wells Fargo) did not honor the “gentleman’s agreement” to use the bailout to pass relief down to individual consumers (yet another “trickle down” failure). In the case of Wells Fargo, public funds were used to acquire Wachovia and increase the size of their portfolio with no risk, and without providing any relief to individuals who needed relief during the economic hardship. Those are just two examples, amongst many.
 
If you look at the ratio of income to the Federal Government with respect to that received from personal income taxes to corporate taxes, there has been a steady trend to reduce the corporate tax burden since the 1980’s.
Are you saying that as a negative? Who has a higher corporate tax burden than the US? Extremely few countries. $0.02 Do we want business growth or not? :confused:
The most obvious example of “corporate welfare” recently was TARP. Explaining it is a bit long winded for this forum, but I would recommend the excellent analysis by Kahn as a starting point: khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/core-finance/money-and-banking/geithner-plan/v/geithner-plan-i Kahn is a former (and brilliant) hedge fund manager who made his fortune, and has turned to education reform as a new vocation. He understands banking and finance very well.

Corporate Welfare sometimes takes the form of tax incentives, but I was referring to the outright donation of about a trillion dollars to companies which are “too big to fail”. In most cases, the companies (such as CitiCorp and Wells Fargo) did not honor the “gentleman’s agreement” to use the bailout to pass relief down to individual consumers (yet another “trickle down” failure). In the case of Wells Fargo, public funds were used to acquire Wachovia and increase the size of their portfolio with no risk, and without providing any relief to individuals who needed relief during the economic hardship. Those are just two examples, amongst many.
If it is tax incentives, it isn’t welfare. Not even sometimes. TARP is a fair point and I did think of that before I went to bed last night. Another one might have been GM. I think the bigger problem was that the winners and losers were picked somewhat arbitrarily, but I don’t agree that the goal was to pass relief to consumers. A huge part of it (banking, not auto) was maintaining solvency / liquidity / reserves thus precluding any idea of “trickling.” The point was exactly to “increase the size of the portfolio” (and reduce risk!). I would have let them fail myself, FWIW. It would have been very messy, but new institutions would have emerged. The consumers got plenty of relief via other mechanisms. Having said all that, these aren’t the companies I see most of the “Corporate Welfare” bemoaners bemoaning.
 
Are you saying that as a negative? Who has a higher corporate tax burden than the US? Extremely few countries. $0.02 Do we want business growth or not? :confused:

If it is tax incentives, it isn’t welfare. Not even sometimes. TARP is a fair point and I did think of that before I went to bed last night. Another one might have been GM. I think the bigger problem was that the winners and losers were picked somewhat arbitrarily, but I don’t agree that the goal was to pass relief to consumers. A huge part of it (banking, not auto) was maintaining solvency / liquidity / reserves thus precluding any idea of “trickling.” The point was exactly to “increase the size of the portfolio” (and reduce risk!). I would have let them fail myself, FWIW. It would have been very messy, but new institutions would have emerged. The consumers got plenty of relief via other mechanisms. Having said all that, these aren’t the companies I see most of the “Corporate Welfare” bemoaners bemoaning.
What you call tax “incentives”, I call shifting the tax burden from the corporate payer to the individual. Higher corporate profits, simply from tax relief is not necessarily desirable. There are examples of countries (such as Germany), which have stronger economies per capita, and higher standard of living by every significant measure of social well being, and with higher tax rates. In fact, the US consistently ranks in the lowest quartile of the OECD countries, where countries such as Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands and Japan rank in the top tier. The story is far more complicated than just looking at tax rates. But that is a troubling part of the picture.

Here is another example of what I would call corporate welfare. A large percentage of big box shopping, fast food, and hospitality workers use food assistance and government provided medical assistance to survive at the poverty line. Why should Walmart (or others) benefit in this way, on the backs of the ordinary taxpayer? Why should they not pay their fair share, for the benefit of being the wealthiest company (or nearly so) in the US? Would they not still be profitable enough? Would not leveling the playing field through legislation help them to accept their social obligation (as I see it), while keeping them competitive with other similar businesses?

It was first documented by “The Economist”, and has been further substantiated that the states in the US which have the highest tax rates are also the most productive. With a few exceptions, it is the so called “blue states” which are the net income producers to the Federal Treasury, and the “red states” which drain the Treasury. So, there is not necessarily a relationship between tax rates and productivity. President Reagan tested the theory, and failed. He ended up have to increase military spending by 30%, when his plan of economic stimulus through tax reduction failed. The trickle down theory has been tested, and it failed to benefit the middle class. Of course, it was part of the unprecedented accumulation of wealth at the top, which did not trickle at all. Ironically, the wealthy in the US are less well off by every measure other than their bank balances than are the wealthy in other countries. So, simply accumulating money is not enough.

We know, for example, the government spending on healthcare in the US is on a par per capita as in Germany. This is easy to show, just by looking at the numbers. Also, private spending on healthcare in the US is on a par with public spending. Cutting through all the excuses and politics, these numbers suggest that we could eliminate private healthcare spending, and have pretty good medical care for everyone in the US, without raising taxes, by following Germany’s example. Personally, I don’t think that insurance companies add much in the way productivity to our economy, as compared to some other sectors. Yet, even when healthcare reform was in the spotlight, we ended up with a “solution” crafted by the insurance lobby. There is an essential corruption in governance which is supporting tremendous inefficiencies in our economy, and undermining our social welfare.

Some say that the US is in a second “Guilded Age”. If the first was characterized by the building up of the Industrial Capitalist society and economy, the second is the Finance Capitalist economy, which is characterized by the tearing down of what was built in the first guided age. The new poverty is no longer from abuse by employers, as it is by underemployment due to technology changes, and the outsourcing of labor.

A critical question is, “how long will people acquiesce?” Will we see the kind of activism that arose from the 1870’s to the 1930’s. One point I would make, is that those people at the end of the 19th century remembered an alternative to Industrial Capitalism, and until the mid to late 20th century, democracy (with individual rights) and capitalism (with corporate incentives) were often viewed as opposing interests which had to be balanced. Today, there is a conflation of capitalism with democracy, which I think is erroneous thinking which leads to the erosion of personal rights, which are aggregated to the corporation.

As an example, I would cite the “Citizen’s United” decision. I have yet to encounter a person who understands its ramifications, who does not also view it as an abortion of the Constitutional protections of free speech. The examples are numerous, but this post is getting longish for this forum anyway.

But to summarize, I don’t believe in unregulated capitalism. Even Adam Smith would agree with me, along with Thomas Jefferson. Hamilton, might too, but probably not. Presidents from Abraham Lincoln onward periodically took the corporate influence to task. We have not had a president since the mid 20th century who has done so. What has happened to the conscience and values of our political leaders?
 
We’re still afflicted with the self - flattering 18th century fantasy that self-government is virtuous; we see in fact that it’s the reverse.
And of course, no form of government and no economy can ever be “virtuous” or “sinful”. They aren’t people. Each is only as virtuous or corrupt as the people who are part of it.
I believe that Wall Street is calling the shots.
This and our slavish devotion to market capitalism and the forever need for unrestrained growth. Too much emphasis on the short term return on investment and not enough on long term growth (and consequences of short-sighted planning).
Who is wall street? All of us.
Wrong. Good PR people would like us to believe that, but we (upper middle class and below) have NO say in the decision-making process or the king-making on Wall Street.
But it is controlled by the money interests, and not the individual voters. Where the ideological split comes is over some of the individual rights issues, such as gay rights, abortion, etc… But these individual rights do not affect the corporate interests much, and the politicians use them to differentiate themselves from each other.
Sadly agree.
I do disagree with some Catholic positions on some social justice issues. However, I applaud Francis in bringing some of these financial issues into focus in his public addresses. Economic fairness provides educational, healthcare and social mobility opportunities (to name a few of the many). It is going to become increasingly important to address these issues.
:clapping:
 
What you call tax “incentives”, I call shifting the tax burden from the corporate payer to the individual. Higher corporate profits, simply from tax relief is not necessarily desirable. There are examples of countries (such as Germany), which have stronger economies per capita, and higher standard of living by every significant measure of social well being, and with higher tax rates. In fact, the US consistently ranks in the lowest quartile of the OECD countries, where countries such as Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands and Japan rank in the top tier. The story is far more complicated than just looking at tax rates. But that is a troubling part of the picture.
(emphasis added).

Absolutely. For example, take a look at the difference between personal income tax rates during, say, the Eisenhower administration, and the Reagan administration (or the Obama administration, for that matter).
 
Is an out of control, overbearing United States Government (one so far from the opinions of the Marshall Court), the price we pay for being immoral?
That’s quite the loaded question there, don’t you think?

Do we really have an “out of control, overbearing” government? By what standard? I haven’t noticed anyone checking my papers all the time, or barring me from my church, or anything like that.

Are you not free to practice your religion? To say and publish what you think? To move about the country freely, or to travel to other countries? What freedom do you feel that your government is taking away from you? I’m guessing you mean that one of those freedoms is the freedom to not pay income taxes, but that’s kind of an unrealistic standard.

By what metric are we less free and more oppressed than the citizens of any other developed nation?
 
That’s quite the loaded question there, don’t you think?

Do we really have an “out of control, overbearing” government? By what standard? I haven’t noticed anyone checking my papers all the time, or barring me from my church, or anything like that.

Are you not free to practice your religion? To say and publish what you think? To move about the country freely, or to travel to other countries? What freedom do you feel that your government is taking away from you? I’m guessing you mean that one of those freedoms is the freedom to not pay income taxes, but that’s kind of an unrealistic standard.

By what metric are we less free and more oppressed than the citizens of any other developed nation?
Well, right now, we are still able do pretty much anything we like, practice any religion we like (to some degree), but we are well on our way to certain religions being made illegal, Jesus warned us of such times, so we should be assured, those times WILL come.

Plus, in regards to other things, the Govt is constantly introducing new bills/ laws, changes to certain laws, etc. We are always hit with more restrictions, regulations, eventually we will live in a complete police state, if people keep burying their heads in the sand and disregarding their constitutional duties, there are things put in there on purpose to protect us from such governments, but if the people refuse to act on them, of course the Govt is going to take advantage of that, and force all kinds of things on us. LOL
 
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