Outrage in France as Macron tries to reach out to Catholic Church

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Polak

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Interesting that a country so vibrantly Christian in the past is now so outraged that Macron wants a dialogue with the Catholic Church.

He said he wanted a ‘dialogue of truth’ whatever that means. It wasn’t like he hinted that the Catholic Church would have a say in the way the country is run. I mean, shouldn’t governments everywhere have dialogue with faith communities? Why the outrage?

It amazed me how quick some politicians and others in France were to defend ‘secularism.’

 
Following the French Revolution, France took the church-state separation concept to a fanatical extreme. As a result, the French have a lot less religious freedom than I’m used to in the U.S.

The rigid secularism of Macron’s critics sounds ironically quite religious and dogmatic.
 
The thing is that separation of church and state legally guaranteed by the French constitution. Secularists see any dialogue between the government and faith communities as a violation of the constitution and a throwback to the pre-Revolution times, when the Church was perceived to be in collusion with the crown against the people. The reaction is extreme, I agree, but consistent with the feeling among the general population. There is actual hostility towards religion in France. I see it every day.
 
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Places where Catholics are forbidden by law to go? No. There are places where I as a Catholic am legally forbidden to display evidence of my Catholicism, but that applies to everyone wearing obvious symbols of faith, not just Catholics.
 
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I’ve lived in France for more than sixteen years, and I don’t know why you think that.
 
Maybe you should listen to the French poster? What is the likelihood that an aggressively secular government is lax on Islam of all things? (The actual religion, I mean. If Muslim people are a minority, and especially if they are refugees, certain protections may be appropriate. But that wouldn’t be because the government thinks Islam is awesome.)
 
Polak said:
…I mean, shouldn’t governments everywhere have dialogue with faith communities? Why the outrage?
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Emmanuel Macron is of the En Marche movement which is not a party but is politically central.

The main parties in France which will all have something to complain about with regard to Marcron are:
  • Far Left: La France Insoumise, Parti de Gauche, Nouveau Parti Anticapitaliste, Lutte Ouvrière, LCR, NPA
  • Left: Parti Socialiste, Parti Communiste, Europe Ecologie Les Verts
  • Central: Mouvement Démocratique, Alliance Centriste
  • Right: Les Républicains
  • Far Right: Front National, Mouvement pour la France (MPF)
 
Gotcha. But you do seem to have more direct experience than SuperLuigi or I.
 
  1. Living in France does not give you any special moral authority
  2. I think we can agree that there are nationalist forces in Frances that don’t like Islam, but they don’t have a lot of political clout considering Le Pen lost the election
  3. The Catholic Church has been under assault in France for over 200 years.
Usagi said:
Maybe you should listen to the French poster?
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See point #1
Usagi said:
What is the likelihood that an aggressively secular government is lax on Islam of all things?
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Secularists, feminists and a lot of other post modern “ists” see Islam as an ally to destroy the bedrock of Western civilization, which is the straight white working Christian male.

Of course, to have a REAL relationship, there must be a two-way street. Islam has no interest in the ultimate destruction of the nuclear family.
Usagi said:
But that wouldn’t be because the government thinks Islam is awesome.
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A lot of big government folks outside of the medium right think that Islam is the best thing since sliced bread. Every time there is a thread on here about Islam, the Western left races out of the gate faster than Seabiscuit to defend it without knowing any facts about the situation. They allow Islam to get away with things they wouldn’t allow a straight white male to even think about.

Just imagine what would happen if white male Americans with southern accents and MAGA hats were running trucks into people. The outrage virtue-signal machine would be out in full force, and the European press wouldn’t be running cover fire for them like they do for Muslims, immigrants and refugees who commit terrorism and crimes.

So let’s not have any illusions.
 
I used to be very much against Islam or at least had some major concerns about it, but I’ve found that we as Christians have a lot more in common with Muslims than say, atheists, who might be the same colour or nationality as us and might dress like us but culturally, are much more different.

Of course there are issues with Islam, particularly the current wave of extremism, but I don’t think it is fair to blame your average Muslim for that.
 
I don’t think very many people rush to defend the actual murderers. They quite rightly seek to keep the reaction to such evil acts from spilling over onto Muslims, immigrants, and/or refugees in general

It’s true that they may be slower to come to the defense of white men as a group when one of them does something atrocious, but with the way power is currently distributed, it’s not as though a mass persecution of white men is going to be the result. White murderers are treated as individuals for the most part, with the media looking into their personal pasts rather than their race and sex as the reason for their crimes. Only very recently have some people started to point out that, if you want to profile based on demographics, “white man” comes out as a pretty dangerous category when looking at mass killings and other spectacular crimes.
 
Polak said:
I used to be very much against Islam or at least had some major concerns about it, but I’ve found that we as Christians have a lot more in common with Muslims than say, atheists, who might be the same colour or nationality as us and might dress like us but culturally, are much more different.
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That’s true in a lot of cases, but moderate and politically conservative Muslim voices are drowned out. I know of numerous Muslims who voted for Trump with the left hysterically screaming at them they would be kicked out. They also said the same thing to me. Hasn’t happened, won’t happen.

As far as “being against” Islam, almost all of my posts in 8 years on here are about reactions to Islam, not about the Islamic faith.

I usually can’t even get to a philosophpolical discussion on-line because when some people hear the word “Islam” they run away screaming about racism or Islamophobia.
Polak said:
Of course there are issues with Islam, particularly the current wave of extremism, but I don’t think it is fair to blame your average Muslim for that.
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Exactly. You cannot blame someone else from another person’s actions.
 
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Two things.
SuperLuigi said:
Living in France does not give you any special moral authority
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This is unfair. I never claimed any “special moral authority.” I just said that what you believe is going on, I do not see happening. Maybe it just isn’t happening in my area, but I also do not claim that my experience is the end-all be-all of the nationwide situation. Things are different in Paris than how they are in Marseille, or Lyon, or Bordeaux. If because of my long-term residency someone else accords authority to my words that I do not claim for myself, lay that at their doorstep, not mine.

Second, the reactionary, melodramatic European press can shove it where the sun don’t shine. They get so much wrong on all sides of the political and social spectrum that I take everything I read and hear from them with a boulder of salt. Just because some members of the press corps feel the need to gloss over some situations and blow others all out of proportion doesn’t mean that I have to drink their Kool-Aid.

Look, I like you, Luigi. I’m not saying there isn’t a shred of truth to what you’re saying. All I said is that I personally do not see evidence of any special privileges given to Muslims. I have Muslim friends who talk about the ostracization, the difficulties getting permits to build their mosques, the harassment when they pray in public…and I sympathize, because as a Catholic I’ve experienced or witnessed many of the same behaviors towards my own.
 
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