Outrages Over More Liturgical Abuses

[FrDavid96]

Thanks go out to Bishop Francis DiLorenzo for handling this the right way.

We (some of us at least) often criticize clergy who defy the Church’s liturgical laws, but don’t often enough recognize when things are done right. The good bishop surely took some criticism for prohibiting the hula, and instead of bowing to that pressure and allowing or ignoring what was then illicit, he decided to make a legitimate appeal to Rome, one which was granted because it was indeed authentic enculturation. I hope more of our clergy (priests, deacons, and bishops alike) would take his example to heart.

It also goes to prove that the Holy See is indeed willing to allow for legitimate enculturation when the request is made.

 

[centurionguard]

Thanks go out to Bishop Francis DiLorenzo for handling this the right way.

We (some of us at least) often criticize clergy who defy the Church’s liturgical laws, but don’t often enough recognize when things are done right. The good bishop surely took some criticism for prohibiting the hula, and instead of bowing to that pressure and allowing or ignoring what was then illicit, he decided to make a legitimate appeal to Rome, one which was granted because it was indeed authentic enculturation. I hope more of our clergy (priests, deacons, and bishops alike) would take his example to heart.

It also goes to prove that the Holy See is indeed willing to allow for legitimate enculturation when the request is made.

Father David;

How would you go about making an analysis of the liturgical abuses that I have witnessed and posted here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=312033

and here : forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=311970

 

[Paco_Nyad]

Who gets to decide what is “permissible during the Mass”?

The Holy See has said that in the Latin Rite, dance is not permitted. When you say the words “despite what the documents say”, that’s another way of saying “despite what Rome says.” The Holy See has the final word on what may or may not be done during Mass. That same Holy See has made it clear that dance is not to be done during the Mass, so why should anyone think otherwise?

When you say “It’s a polarizing and inaccurate comment that kills one’s credibility” you are saying that Rome is not a credible source on liturgical matters. I for one have a very difficult time accepting that, as I consider the Holy See to be a credible source indeed.

Not at all. I was simply saying that you and others either didn’t have the whole story (which appears to be situation in the case) or your chose to ignore it and instead gave your personal understanding of the situation (and not the Church’s) as if it was authoritative with absolutely no variances allowed.

Sadly, I think that’s why a lot of groups and individuals are ignored within the Church and elsewhere. They (often stridently) present THEIR understanding of a given situation as being THE END. Unfortunately their understanding of a situation is often not exhaustive nor do they understand how the Church really works in terms of authority, approves variances, ultimate responsibility, etc. Adoremus (whose bulletin I receive monthly) should have dug a bit deeper on this one and loses credibility because it did not.

I’m one of the most analytical/linear thinkers I know. But I have also learned that the Church is anything but logical. It is steeped in nuance and and that means the answer isn’t always going to be nicely cut-n-dried. Nor is it going to be easy or always what we hope it will be…

 

[centurionguard]

But I have also learned that the Church is anything but logical. It is steeped in nuance and and that means the answer isn’t always going to be nicely cut-n-dried. Nor is it going to be easy or always what we hope it will be…

I don’t believe what you state here makes a fair assessment of how the Catholic Church can be categorized in this unfair biased manner.

The Church has many beliefs and laws that a number of Catholics do not or blatantly will not support because it does not fit their way of life or thinking and with utmost regard to that which pertains to the Catholic Church’s traditions on Moral Theology. As Catholics we may not like some of it’s teachings but if we claim to be a True Catholic we must accept it’s precepts; in faith, humility and without question. God once said that we are a Stiff Necked People. That we are indeed.

 

[Paco_Nyad]

I don’t believe what you state here makes a fair assessment of how the Catholic Church can be categorized in this unfair biased manner.

The Church has many beliefs and laws that a number of Catholics do not or blatantly will not support because it does not fit their way of life or thinking and with utmost regard to that which pertains to the Catholic Church’s traditions on Moral Theology. As Catholics we may not like some of it’s teachings but if we claim to be a True Catholic we must accept it’s precepts; in faith, humility and without question. God once said that we are a Stiff Necked People. That we are indeed.

I really don’t care what you think. I honestly don’t. You shouldn’t care what I think either. We should only care what the Church actually instructs and teaches. Someone said “Liturgical Dancing is absolutely forbidden in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church (in the Western Church)” and they were wrong. No matter how you spin that personal interpretation of what the Church allows and does not allow it is wrong because it was incomplete.

Too many Catholics ignore the Church because “because it does not fit their way of life or thinking!” YOU GOT THAT RIGHT! They feel they know better then the Church. That they are the final arbiters (or interpreters) of what is right or wrong and not the Church – be it in the form of the pastors, bishops or even the pope.

Your say “As Catholics we may not like some of it’s teachings” and that’s true, yet our personal tastes far too often color our personal opinion of Church documents. I’ll bet not one person here likes the idea of hula (and other dance types) being allowed during the Mass in Hawaii and that bias no doubt kept some from digging deeper, to the full truth.

Those types of biases color far too many postings on these forums.

 

[centurionguard]

I really don’t care what you think. I honestly don’t. You shouldn’t care what I think either. We should only care what the Church actually instructs and teaches. Someone said “Liturgical Dancing is absolutely forbidden in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church (in the Western Church)” and they were wrong. No matter how you spin that personal interpretation of what the Church allows and does not allow it is wrong because it was incomplete.

Too many Catholics ignore the Church because “because it does not fit their way of life or thinking!” YOU GOT THAT RIGHT! They feel they know better then the Church. That they are the final arbiters (or interpreters) of what is right or wrong and not the Church – be it in the form of the pastors, bishops or even the pope.

Your say “As Catholics we may not like some of it’s teachings” and that’s true, yet our personal tastes far too often color our personal opinion of Church documents. I’ll bet not one person here likes the idea of hula (and other dance types) being allowed during the Mass in Hawaii and that bias no doubt kept some from digging deeper, to the full truth.

Those types of biases color far too many postings on these forums.

Perhaps we don’t agree on certain points about Liturgical Dancing. That in itself does not make us enemies.
There is always imperative Dialogue in the Church.
Any yes; I will admit that under an Archbishops eccelsiastical
approval there are exceptions to the rule with respect to Catholic cultural celebrations. But it is not the norm.

 

[Chancellor]

That’s simply not true, no matter what the NOR would like to suggest.

While the definition of what constitutes “dance” is a whole other discussion, “dance” is not prohibited where it is part of the culture that has been made part of the Mass from the very beginning of the Masses introduction into any given area.

I’m not at all sure that some sort of “dance” or movement hasn’t pretty much always been part of the Mass in some places like parts of Hawaii or some African countries.

This is exactly correct. I live in the Southwestern United States where Native American dancing is seen during masses not only on the Pueblos and Reservations but at masses where the Bishop is presiding and the diverse culture of the diocese is being celebrated.
We also at times see Folklorico and other dance forms. Around here we consider this form of worship appropriate, beautiful and worshipful.

 

[Paco_Nyad]

Perhaps we don’t agree on certain points about Liturgical Dancing. That in itself does not make us enemies.
There is always imperative Dialogue in the Church.
Any yes; I will admit that under an Archbishops eccelsiastical
approval there are exceptions to the rule with respect to Catholic cultural celebrations. But it is not the norm.

“But it is not the norm”

is MILES from

“Liturgical Dancing is absolutely forbidden in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church (in the Western Church)”

This was not a case of misinterpretation. It was a matter of not having all the facts.

 

[Paco_Nyad]

That’s simply not true, no matter what the NOR would like to suggest.

While the definition of what constitutes “dance” is a whole other discussion, “dance” is not prohibited where it is part of the culture that has been made part of the Mass from the very beginning of the Masses introduction into any given area.

I’m not at all sure that some sort of “dance” or movement hasn’t pretty much always been part of the Mass in some places like parts of Hawaii or some African countries.

This is exactly correct. I live in the Southwestern United States where Native American dancing is seen during masses not only on the Pueblos and Reservations but at masses where the Bishop is presiding and the diverse culture of the diocese is being celebrated.
We also at times see Folklorico and other dance forms. Around here we consider this form of worship appropriate, beautiful and worshipful.
That I don’t know for certain I would bet that you folks also have formal permission from the Holy See to do what you do.

 

[Paco_Nyad]

This is exactly correct. I live in the Southwestern United States where Native American dancing is seen during masses not only on the Pueblos and Reservations but at masses where the Bishop is presiding and the diverse culture of the diocese is being celebrated.
We also at times see Folklorico and other dance forms. Around here we consider this form of worship appropriate, beautiful and worshipful.

I would guess you also have formal permission to do what you do.

This thread is a hoot. First, nothing but cries of “NO liturgical dance – anywhere!”

Then I offer some information from Hawaii.

Then we are treated to “That’s not liturgical dance, that’s legitimate enculturation” (sic)

Sheesh.

 

[Contarini]

In the West dancing does not have, on our culture, the element of the sacred.

Of course it did at one time. If that has changed, perhaps it’s time we changed it back.

Sacred dance is a universal human activity. Any culture that lacks it is crippled.

Edwin

 

[Paco_Nyad]

Of course it did at one time. If that has changed, perhaps it’s time we changed it back.

Sacred dance is a universal human activity. Any culture that lacks it is crippled.

Edwin

Quite true…

To suggest that sacred dance has not been a huge part of what is now the USA – even long before the Church was on these shores is just wrong.

Maybe some (natives) just bristle at the thought of having all the elements of their native worship squelched in order celebrate the Mass just as it was being celebrated in Ireland, Germany, France or Italy?

Thankfully that was not always the case with the evangelization of the New World.

Look at what the largely Irish hierarchy did to the Eastern Catholic churches in the USA. Very intolerant, very ignorant, very sad.

Keep in mind the Mass originally borrowed heavily from extant PAGAN ritual.

 

[FrDavid96]

Not at all. I was simply saying that you and others either didn’t have the whole story (which appears to be situation in the case) or your chose to ignore it and instead gave your personal understanding of the situation (and not the Church’s) as if it was authoritative with absolutely no variances allowed.

Sadly, I think that’s why a lot of groups and individuals are ignored within the Church and elsewhere. They (often stridently) present THEIR understanding of a given situation as being THE END. Unfortunately their understanding of a situation is often not exhaustive nor do they understand how the Church really works in terms of authority, approves variances, ultimate responsibility, etc. Adoremus (whose bulletin I receive monthly) should have dug a bit deeper on this one and loses credibility because it did not.

I’m one of the most analytical/linear thinkers I know. But I have also learned that the Church is anything but logical. It is steeped in nuance and and that means the answer isn’t always going to be nicely cut-n-dried. Nor is it going to be easy or always what we hope it will be…

For “one of the most analytical/linear thinkers [you] know” you missed something; I wasn’t quoting an Adoremus article, I was quoting the Congregation for Divine Worship, which itself just happened to be posted at the Adoreums website–I could have found it elsewhere, but that was simply convenient. Twice now you’ve questioned someone’s credibility and both times without realizing it the “person” to whom you referred turned out to be the Holy See.

Credibility.

 

[FrDavid96]

Father David;

How would you go about making an analysis of the liturgical abuses that I have witnessed and posted here: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=312033

and here : forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=311970

Well, to do so would take us off-topic in both of those threads, and this one (which is realy about dance, even though the title doesn’t mention it). I think it would be a legitimate topic for a new thread if you care to start one.

 

[FrDavid96]

I would guess you also have formal permission to do what you do.

This thread is a hoot. First, nothing but cries of “NO liturgical dance – anywhere!”

Then I offer some information from Hawaii.

Then we are treated to “That’s not liturgical dance, that’s legitimate enculturation” (sic)

Sheesh.

It’s what is known as an exception to the rule. The Holy See can make such exceptions, as we see in the events in Hawaii. Once again, legitimate enculturation is that which has been approved by the Holy See after careful (and hopefully prayerful) consideration. See Vatican II.

 

[Chancellor]

Ho Mituake Oyasin, All My Relations

Among us Indians we see no separation between the dances that our ancestors have taught us and the worship of Christ our Lord.

To suggest that our mass is somehow inferior to the white man’s mass or that our culture is just paganism with a cross is simply cultural imperialism and spiritual oppression.

If you don’t want white people dancing in your white churches just say so and leave us alone. We are 100% Catholic amd 100% Indian. If you can’t reconcile that it’s not our concern.

 

[Paco_Nyad]

For “one of the most analytical/linear thinkers [you] know” you missed something; I wasn’t quoting an Adoremus article, I was quoting the Congregation for Divine Worship, which itself just happened to be posted at the Adoreums website–I could have found it elsewhere, but that was simply convenient. Twice now you’ve questioned someone’s credibility and both times without realizing it the “person” to whom you referred turned out to be the Holy See.

Credibility.

Not so. I questioned the credibility of those who didn’t have all the information before making their pronouncements.

It’s becoming clear to me that some lack whatever quality it is that allows others to recognize their errors and/or omissions.

 

[benedictgal]

“But it is not the norm”

is MILES from

“Liturgical Dancing is absolutely forbidden in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church (in the Western Church)”

This was not a case of misinterpretation. It was a matter of not having all the facts.

This is what Francis Cardinal Arinze noted when asked about “liturgical dance”:

There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass.

He answered this question in his capacity as then-prefect for the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. Now, as Fr. David has rightly noted, the Church will make some allowances for inculturation. However, in 1994, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments issued this instruction regarding the application of inculturation:

1. Before any research on inculturation begins, it is necessary to keep in mind the nature of the liturgy. It “is, in fact the privileged place where Christians meet God and the one whom he has sent, Jesus Christ” (cf. Jn. 17:3).[39] It is at once the action of Christ the priest and the action of the church which is his body, because in order to accomplish his work of glorifying God and sanctifying mankind, achieved through visible signs, he always associates with himself the church, which, through him and in the Holy Spirit, gives the Father the worship which is pleasing to him.[40]

1. The nature of the liturgy is intimately linked up with the nature of the church; indeed, it is above all in the liturgy that the nature of the church is manifested.[41] Now the church has specific characteristics which distinguish it from every other assembly and community.

It is not gathered together by a human decision, but is called by God in the Holy Spirit and responds in faith to his gratuitous call ( derives from <klesis,> “call”). This singular characteristic of the church is revealed by its coming together as a priestly people, especially on the Lord’s day, by the word which God addresses to his people and by the ministry of the priest, who through the sacrament of orders acts in the person of Christ the head.[42]

Because it is catholic, the church overcomes the barriers which divide humanity: By baptism all become children of God and form in Christ Jesus one people where “there is neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female” (Gal. 3:28). Thus church is called to gather all peoples, to speak the languages, to penetrate all cultures.

Finally, the church is a pilgrim on the earth far from the Lord (cf. 2 Cor. 5:6): It bears the marks of the present time in the sacraments and in its institutions, but is waiting in joyful hope for the coming of Jesus Christ (cf. Ti. 2: 13).[43] This is expressed in the prayers of petition: It shows that we are citizens of heaven (cf. Phil. 3:20), at the same time attentive to the needs of mankind and of society (cf. 1 Tm. 2: 1-4).

…However deep inculturation may go, the liturgy cannot do without legislation and vigilance on the part of those who have received this responsibility in the church: the Apostolic See and, according to the prescriptions of the law, the episcopal conference for its territory and the bishop for his diocese.[61]

…30. To prepare an inculturation of the liturgy, episcopal conferences should call upon people who are competent both in the liturgical tradition of the Roman rite and in the appreciation of local cultural values. Preliminary studies of a historical, anthropological, exegetical and theological character are necessary. But these need to be examined in the light of the pastoral experience of the local clergy, especially those born in the country.[67] The advice of “wise people” of the country, whose human wisdom is enriched by the light of the Gospel, would also be valuable. Liturgical inculturation should try to satisfy the needs of traditional culture[68] and at the same time take account of the needs of those affected by an urban and industrial culture.

Thus, inculturational adaptations made to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass must be done carefully to preserve the integrity of the Sacred Liturgy.

Again, we cannot use the inculturational aspect to justify youngsters dancing around during Mass.

 

[Paco_Nyad]

It’s what is known as an exception to the rule. The Holy See can make such exceptions, as we see in the events in Hawaii. Once again, legitimate enculturation is that which has been approved by the Holy See after careful (and hopefully prayerful) consideration. See Vatican II.

Not once were any such exceptions or even the possibility of such exceptions noted when we were treated to the drone of "“Liturgical Dancing is absolutely forbidden in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church (in the Western Church)” replete with supporting verbiage.

You’re in good company though. Adoremus missed it too.

No matter what, such omissions kills one’s credibility.

 

[Paco_Nyad]

Ho Mituake Oyasin, All My Relations

Among us Indians we see no separation between the dances that our ancestors have taught us and the worship of Christ our Lord.

To suggest that our mass is somehow inferior to the white man’s mass or that our culture is just paganism with a cross is simply cultural imperialism and spiritual oppression.

If you don’t want white people dancing in your white churches just say so and leave us alone. We are 100% Catholic amd 100% Indian. If you can’t reconcile that it’s not our concern.

Good for you!