Outrages Over More Liturgical Abuses

[FrDavid96]

Not once were any such exceptions or even the possibility of such exceptions noted when we were treated to the drone of "“Liturgical Dancing is absolutely forbidden in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church (in the Western Church)” replete with supporting verbiage.

You’re in good company though. Adoremus missed it too.

No matter what, such omissions kills one’s credibility.

Re-read your own post #11. You’ve just contradicted yourself.

Credibility.

 

[Paco_Nyad]

Re-read your own post #11. You’ve just contradicted yourself.

Credibility.

I typed the followin on posting #11 (the rest was a quote and is shown as such):

“Part of the problem is the definition of “dance.” Cardinal Arnize talks in one statement about the procession of gifts. The way some people move during the procession in some countries in Africa would be decried as “dance” in Iowa. But it’s not in that certain part of Africa. Let me quote from your Adoremus article:”

I did not contradict myself. You’re in good company though. It’s quite possible that Adoremus might have missed it too.

 

[centurionguard]

Quite true…

To suggest that sacred dance has not been a huge part of what is now the USA – even long before the Church was on these shores is just wrong.

Maybe some (natives) just bristle at the thought of having all the elements of their native worship squelched in order celebrate the Mass just as it was being celebrated in Ireland, Germany, France or Italy?

Thankfully that was not always the case with the evangelization of the New World.

Look at what the largely Irish hierarchy did to the Eastern Catholic churches in the USA. Very intolerant, very ignorant, very sad.

Keep in mind the Mass originally borrowed heavily from extant PAGAN ritual.

I often wonder if the Catholic Church had to make cultural concessions for every culture, every nationality…where would unity in the Mass be ? The Vatican sets the rules as to how the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and it’s Liturgy is to be adhered to in every country. NOW we can all argue till the cows come home but it won’t change how the Vatican finalizes the Liturgy.
And it’s up the clergy to abide by it.

 

[Paco_Nyad]

I often wonder if the Catholic Church had to make cultural concessions for every culture, every nationality…where would unity in the Mass be ? The Vatican sets the rules as to how the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and it’s Liturgy is to be adhered to in every country. NOW we can all argue till the cows come home but it won’t change how the Vatican finalizes the Liturgy.
And it’s up the clergy to abide by it.

WHAT?!?

The Holy See defines the rubrics for the Mass. Check. In some cases it makes cultural (or other) “concessions” for given areas. Check. We need to make note of those “concessions” when making pronouncements that impact them. Check.

That’s all there is to it.

 

[FrDavid96]

I typed the followin on posting #11 (the rest was a quote and is shown as such):

“Part of the problem is the definition of “dance.” Cardinal Arnize talks in one statement about the procession of gifts. The way some people move during the procession in some countries in Africa would be decried as “dance” in Iowa. But it’s not in that certain part of Africa. Let me quote from your Adoremus article:”

I did not contradict myself.

From post #11 Posted by Paco Nyad

…Let me quote from your Adoremus article:
“There has not been an express ruling from the Holy See against so-called “liturgical dance” – primarily because, as Cardinal Arinze also observed, dance-like movements during processions are customary in some countries, and thus may be a legitimate form of “inculturation” of the Litugy in these regions. This kind of ritual dance has been introduced into several papal liturgies in recent years – on occasions usually connected with African or Asian culture. These are special exceptions, however, that are to be seen in the context of the Holy Father’s unique universal role, not as precedent-setting liturgical variations.”

From post #38 Posted by Paco Nyad

**Not once were any such exceptions or even the possibility of such exceptions noted **when we were treated to the drone of "“Liturgical Dancing is absolutely forbidden in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church (in the Western Church)” replete with supporting verbiage.

You’re in good company though. Adoremus missed it too.

Credibility. Credibility. Credibility.

 

[Paco_Nyad]

And your credibility is shot with me. No where do you suggest in postings 7, 8 or 10 that there are exceptions. You also didn’t correct other people comments. That changed with my posting on Hawaii. In your posting #18 you finally address reality with your own words.

I was wrong about Adoremus (and I could explain why but I was still wrong) but I was not in your case. That’s clearly more than you will ever admit on this thread.

It’s too bad you didn’t have whatever quality it takes to mention in posting #7 what you finally did in #18. Then again, maybe you just did not know? Finis.

 

[benedictgal]

I often wonder if the Catholic Church had to make cultural concessions for every culture, every nationality…where would unity in the Mass be ? The Vatican sets the rules as to how the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and it’s Liturgy is to be adhered to in every country. NOW we can all argue till the cows come home but it won’t change how the Vatican finalizes the Liturgy.
And it’s up the clergy to abide by it.

Bear in mind, too, that inculturation is not applied wholesale. The Church, as I noted in my previous post, is very particular about how this prinicple should be applied. Some folks have tried to justify having young people perform these dances because they believe youth to be a culture. However, inculturation applies only to missionary territories where the Church has established missions.

The Matachines date back some 500 years. When Our Lady of Guadalulpe appeared in Mexico, the Aztecs honored her with a sacred dance. Even today, their descendants continue to honor her with this ritual dance. However, at least in my area, this dance is done outside of the confines of the Mass. During the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, the dance precedes the opening procession. Sometimes, they will accomompany the presentation of the gifts, but, these are few and far between.

The fact remains that the Holy See takes great measures to safeguard the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. She will work with indigenous cultures, as the document I quoted notes, but, not at the expense of making wholesale changes to the Mass.

Regarding the claim that one of the posters made regarding the Mass borrowing heavily from pagan rituals, there is nothing to substantiate that notion. The Mass comes, in part, from the cultic worship of Ancient Israel. The first part comes from the Synagogue period where the Word was proclaimed and the psalms were chanted. The second part comes from the ritual Sacrifice that pointed to the one, true and salvific Sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

 

[centurionguard]

Bear in mind, too, that inculturation is not applied wholesale. The Church, as I noted in my previous post, is very particular about how this prinicple should be applied. Some folks have tried to justify having young people perform these dances because they believe youth to be a culture. However, inculturation applies only to missionary territories where the Church has established missions.

The Matachines date back some 500 years. When Our Lady of Guadalulpe appeared in Mexico, the Aztecs honored her with a sacred dance. Even today, their descendants continue to honor her with this ritual dance. However, at least in my area, this dance is done outside of the confines of the Mass. During the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, the dance precedes the opening procession. Sometimes, they will accomompany the presentation of the gifts, but, these are few and far between.

The fact remains that the Holy See takes great measures to safeguard the integrity of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. She will work with indigenous cultures, as the document I quoted notes, but, not at the expense of making wholesale changes to the Mass.

Regarding the claim that one of the posters made regarding the Mass borrowing heavily from pagan rituals, there is nothing to substantiate that notion. The Mass comes, in part, from the cultic worship of Ancient Israel. The first part comes from the Synagogue period where the Word was proclaimed and the psalms were chanted. The second part comes from the ritual Sacrifice that pointed to the one, true and salvific Sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

I’m in full agreement with everything you state here

Thank You.

In Canada in the far North there are Inuit tribes with Catholic Missions. A few years before Pope John Paul II passed away he made a strong point and visited the area. In fact CBC Television broadcast it Nationally and is obtainable on the internet in their archives. There was dancing amongst various Inuit and Indian Tribes. However; it was celebrated outside the liturgy.

 

[FrDavid96]

From post #1

Liturgical Dancing is absolutely forbidden in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church (in the Western Church). … This, in the West, it cannot be included in the Mass except by special indult in the case perhaps of an ethnic parish with a cultural background of true sacred dancing.… In those cultures the Church allows Liturgical Dancing because in those cultures the dancing that is done during the Mass is culturally sacred.

Now from post #38

**Not once were any such exceptions or even the possibility of such exceptions noted **when we were treated to the drone of "“Liturgical Dancing is absolutely forbidden in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church (in the Western Church)” replete with supporting verbiage.

You’re in good company though. Adoremus missed it too.

No matter what, such omissions kills one’s credibility.

Let’s keep re-reading the posts Here’s #23

Not at all. I was simply saying that you and others either didn’t have the whole story … as if it was authoritative with absolutely no variances allowed.
…

Now let’s take a look at #25

…Someone said “Liturgical Dancing is absolutely forbidden in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church (in the Western Church)” and they were wrong. No matter how you spin that personal interpretation of what the Church allows and does not allow it is wrong because it was incomplete.

Again from post #28

This was not a case of misinterpretation. It was a matter of not having all the facts.

Now for post #38

Not once were any such exceptions or even the possibility of such exceptions noted…

Now, one last time, let’s refresh our memories and read post #1, the very FIRST post which brought up this subject, and which was the constant target of the words "**Not once **were any such exceptions or even the possibility of such exceptions noted when we were treated to the drone of "“Liturgical Dancing is absolutely forbidden in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church (in the Western Church)”

This, in the West, it cannot be included in the Mass except by special indult in the case perhaps of an ethnic parish with a cultural background of true sacred dancing.

There are other cultures where dance has been apart of sacred expression for thousands of years. It is part of the culture. It is part of the people, not just an entertainment. **In those cultures the Church allows Liturgical Dancing **because in those cultures the dancing that is done during the Mass is culturally sacred.
.

Now let us read post #36 to put it all into context

I questioned the credibility of those who didn’t have all the information before making their pronouncements.
It’s becoming clear to me that some lack whatever quality it is that allows others to recognize their errors and/or omissions.

 

[Frosty]

Regarding the claim that one of the posters made regarding the Mass borrowing heavily from pagan rituals, there is nothing to substantiate that notion. The Mass comes, in part, from the cultic worship of Ancient Israel. The first part comes from the Synagogue period where the Word was proclaimed and the psalms were chanted. The second part comes from the ritual Sacrifice that pointed to the one, true and salvific Sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

Interestingly, a book that I have been reading this week talks about just that. The book is called 'Of Sacraments and Sacrifice" by Clifford Hall, S.J. and was published in 1952 by the Liturgical Press. The chapters in the book originally appeared as a series of articles in “Worship”, a review dedicated to the liturgical apostolate. The chapter on Sacrifice begins with how from the very beginning, there has been no race or tribe that did not believe that there is some power or power guiding man’s destiny. That when men believe in a god, they have fellings of reverence, fear, hope, desire and adoration. Because of these feelings man does things expressive of adoration. Father Hall goes on to talk about how ancient cultures practiced this adoration. Always in the form of a sacrifice. He talks about the Aztecs, the ancient Greeks and Romans, the early Celts and Britons, and the early Jews. Although there were local variations there was always an underlying uniformity. They always assembled in crowds; they brought some object with them, did something to it then often ate and drank of it.
In summary, Father Hall said that in general, when men desire to worship the god they believe in :
a) They come together to some “holy- place-of-the -god” which is usually a stone or a rock. We call this place an altar.
b) The proceedings are led by a specially authorized person in charge of the worship. We would call him a priest.
c)An object of some kind, provided by the community is placed on this altar by the priest; usually he does something to it [killing, burning,pouring out] to show that the community is now ceasing to pocess it. There is a name for this action. It is called “immolation”.
d)Sometimes, although not always, the whole act of worship ends with a community meal at which those present eat or drink of whatever it was that was put onto the altar.
After talking about the ancient worship practices, the chapter goes on to explain the meaning of Sacrifice as we understand it as Catholics. But it does seem that that the basic rite of worship certainly does have origins from pagan times.

 

[benedictgal]

Interestingly, a book that I have been reading this week talks about just that. The book is called 'Of Sacraments and Sacrifice" by Clifford Hall, S.J. and was published in 1952 by the Liturgical Press. The chapters in the book originally appeared as a series of articles in “Worship”, a review dedicated to the liturgical apostolate. The chapter on Sacrifice begins with how from the very beginning, there has been no race or tribe that did not believe that there is some power or power guiding man’s destiny. That when men believe in a god, they have fellings of reverence, fear, hope, desire and adoration. Because of these feelings man does things expressive of adoration. Father Hall goes on to talk about how ancient cultures practiced this adoration. Always in the form of a sacrifice. He talks about the Aztecs, the ancient Greeks and Romans, the early Celts and Britons, and the early Jews. Although there were local variations there was always an underlying uniformity. They always assembled in crowds; they brought some object with them, did something to it then often ate and drank of it.
In summary, Father Hall said that in general, when men desire to worship the god they believe in :
a) They come together to some “holy- place-of-the -god” which is usually a stone or a rock. We call this place an altar.
b) The proceedings are led by a specially authorized person in charge of the worship. We would call him a priest.
c)An object of some kind, provided by the community is placed on this altar by the priest; usually he does something to it [killing, burning,pouring out] to show that the community is now ceasing to pocess it. There is a name for this action. It is called “immolation”.
d)Sometimes, although not always, the whole act of worship ends with a community meal at which those present eat or drink of whatever it was that was put onto the altar.
After talking about the ancient worship practices, the chapter goes on to explain the meaning of Sacrifice as we understand it as Catholics. But it does seem that that the basic rite of worship certainly does have origins from pagan times.

Inasmuch as I understand what you are saying, the cultic worship that we have, as Catholics, pretty much comes down to us from the time of Genesis when Abel offered the first sacrifice (for a reference, check the history briefly noted in the Roman Canon). As Abel was the fourth human being listed in the Bible, I seriously doubt that he was engaged in pagan activities. We jump to Noah, who, with his family, offered a sacrifice of thanksgiving to God for delvering him from the flood (which we read in yesterday’s readings). Granted, by the time we get to Abraham, there are pagan cultures all over the place, nonetheless, Abraham engages in sacrificial worship to God.

The Lord, on Mount Sinai, ordered Moses to codify this ritual for Ancient Israel. What other cultures did was their business, I am speaking to the heritage the Church has preserved.